juberberry
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 132
Preferred Game Systems: Traveller, VANGUARD, Shadowrun 4, CP2020
Currently Playing: Traveller - rarely
Currently Running: Traveller, Shadowrun 4, VANGUARD
Favorite Species of Monkey: Ressus
|
Post by juberberry on Aug 3, 2013 4:30:50 GMT -8
Hey everyone - it's been awhile since I posted.
As some might remember I am running a Traveller game in the Firefly universe. We don't get a helluva lot of playtime. Once every two weeks with a session of 2-3 hours max. Two of my players are east coast time-zoned and one of them has to work the next morning. We play from 9:30PM to 12:00AM Eastern. My players consist of two married couples, one local to me is my best friend of 20+ years and his wife. The other is my close friends from when I worked on the easy coast.
I was using Firefly (a setting my players were all comfortable with) to introduce my players to Traveller before I "opened up" the game universe to them. We had our bi weekly game last night and things went somewhat poorly.
I love all my players but one of them (the wife of my best friend no less) has this habit of becoming very analytical in a metagamey way. She's playing a retired scientist in the role of the ships doc and cargo broker. At some point in every session she will start asking questions about "why" they were doing these things. She will side-rail a combat session to pontificate whether the party is justified in their actions. She attends combats through a couple remote drones.
Essentially she becomes the actor that waits until she's on stage to ask "What's my motivation for this scene?" and then wants to discuss everyone elses motivations for that scene as well. It leads to very long conversations that soon turn into heated "discussions" about the situation and why the other characters want to get involved in whatever the plot is. Imagine Deanna Troi from STNG mixed with a very aggressive player personality almost forcing other players to justify their interest in a plot hook.
I can tell it gets to the other players and I try to keep her in check but I also don't want to stifle her creativity too much.
Last night it came to something of a head.
A few weeks ago; a derelict ship, an Aslan player joining the crew of The Threnody, a shiny "new to them" Jump Drive, and high tension with the Alliance all lent to the decision to take their first strokes in a new, bigger pond. I knew where the PCs were going and I had a great idea. I was now going to run them through a classic game, Aramis: The Traveller Adventure.
Summary: An NPC steals a brooch that contains the secrets of a powerful man and his arrangements with a band of Vargr corsairs. The NPC had the brooch "stolen" from him by a pawn shop/museum and the players are enticed to help him recover it after rescuing the NPC.
The players made it to Aramis and landed on the planet. The first two sessions of this arc went great. They rescued Gvoudzen (the NPC) and got his story. They saw a cool plot hook, grabbed it, and were pulling it deep under the waters. They were discussing ways in which to help him recover his property and had gotten to the point of casing the museum (the doctor was involved all through this). The doctor/scientist had even broken into the message database of the museum and cracked a very suspicious encrypted message from a third party corporation asking for return of a brooch matching the description of the brooch that Gvoudzen had lost.
Then "that player" stepped up her game. She stopped game play at the 11th hour of the session and started asking "why". The characters were engaged, there was a mystery here and the crew of The Threnody were there to crack it. Even the doc had helped uncover part of the mystery. But WHY are we investigating this mystery?! To her credit - she does it mostly "in character" and she doesn't use information her character does not have. She's just very persistent.
I think after 15 minutes "discussing" the motivations through the characters my captain player cracked. His character took the lost wallet they had found with the clue of the larger picture and essentially dropped it in the mail (rather than returning it in person as he had planned). He then gathered up all the information that the party had gathered. He posted it in an anonymous message to the local police and then booted Gvoudzen out the airlock with 50 credits and instructions that he was "on his own". Effectively I think he was telling the other player "Fine, you don't want an adventure? Great! Go find me a cargo and let's get back to just running some new trade routes!"
A couple game days later Gvoudzen's name showed up in the local papers obituary (the captain was specifically watching local news feeds). He was brutally beaten, and stabbed to death. There is little in the way of police investigation.
Now - I know what's going to happen next - assuming we have a game in two weeks. Gvoudzen had no reason not to name the Threnody as the crew who rescued him the first time. He will have also told his interrogators about the fact that he had spilled all the beans about the brooch to the crew of the Threnody (the fact that Gvoudzen suspected the brooch was used to carry secret messages). The characters are now under the scrutiny of both a powerful man in a megacorp and the Vargr corsairs he was doing business with illegally. Tons of things I can do here to harass the players or possibly even get them back into the adventure.
My concern is that this player behavior is going to break my game. Even I as the GM am getting a little frustrated with the constant introspection being forced on other players by the one player. It's one thing to look for motivation to grab a plot hook, it's another to constantly review motivations around that plot hook.
I know I need to sit down and talk with this player. She's a great friend to me and my best friends wife but she's sucking the fun out of my game for the rest of her players, including her husband. She just tends to not take criticisms very well and I am concerned that half of my group is about to pull out. Which half depends on how I handle this I think.
*sigh* I'm just commiserating on my woes and GM frustrations. Anyway, if you read - thanks for reading. If you want to reply, or have any good advice - feel free.
Jerry in Oregon - out
|
|
|
Post by jazzisblues on Aug 3, 2013 5:14:36 GMT -8
Good story It's always frustrating when it seems like it should be right in front of them and easy to see but they just aren't putting the pieces together. I try to roll with it and just let them go where they will, eventually they will find their way to it or it will find its way to them.
In my younger years I was running a D&D game one of the characters was a fighter with super low int (could not read) and she happened to pick up a critical clue written on a piece of paper. She looked at it, asked me what was on it. I responded that it had a bunch of squiggly lines on it. Her response, "I throw it back down and go on my way." *facepalm*
JiB
|
|
juberberry
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 132
Preferred Game Systems: Traveller, VANGUARD, Shadowrun 4, CP2020
Currently Playing: Traveller - rarely
Currently Running: Traveller, Shadowrun 4, VANGUARD
Favorite Species of Monkey: Ressus
|
Post by juberberry on Aug 3, 2013 5:31:46 GMT -8
Hahahaha - Yeah players are bitches that way.
I know it will sort itself out. I plan on speaking to the Captain player today to see what's up. I need to see whether this is salvageable.
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Aug 3, 2013 7:27:04 GMT -8
Wow but wow . . . players derail but that's spectacular. Regarding the constant requests for 'motivation' may I suggest some plausible 'get out of jail free cards for the other players': 1) I'm irrational, I want to pursue this course of action for the same reason Hillary climbed Everest - not because it would achieve anything, simply because it's there. 2) I suffered a minor head injury during the war, this has resulted in some mild scarring of my prefrontal cortex making me impulsive. I tend to act without too much forethought when attempting to mediate some aspects of my behaviour 3) I have very low corticosteriod levels due to my genotype, this expresses it self as a personality that requires constant stimulation to boost said levels. You could call me an adrenaline junkie the crazier it sounds the more excited I get the better I feel 4) My teacher-bot touched me in a bad place when I was young, this retarded the appropriate development of my Ego so I'm continually conflicted by the instinctual demands of my Id and the restrictive and guilt laden requirements of my Super-Ego. I see a therapist every Wednesday, these questions . . . I'm feeling rather fragile now, please respect my personal space and my right to privacy . . . Aaron
|
|
juberberry
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 132
Preferred Game Systems: Traveller, VANGUARD, Shadowrun 4, CP2020
Currently Playing: Traveller - rarely
Currently Running: Traveller, Shadowrun 4, VANGUARD
Favorite Species of Monkey: Ressus
|
Post by juberberry on Aug 3, 2013 7:45:27 GMT -8
LOL - I think I'll save number 4 for my personal use. I'll pass along the others though
|
|
|
Post by henryhankovitch on Aug 3, 2013 7:48:05 GMT -8
I know you're posting this as a player problem, but I'd like to poke the other side of the sack. Are you putting enough effort--or any effort--to try to tailor adventures to the IC interests of your party? I've had similar situations come up in Rogue Trader and D&D, when the opportunity for adventure is presented to the players and they just say, "ehh, looks dangerous, not our problem, let's go over this way." Some players are really compliant with the metagame suspension of disbelief when it comes to adventure hooks. But they all aren't, not all of the time.
Money is the universal motivator, of course, though a shallow one. It's the sort of thing that either cajoles or disguises character motivations in Firefly. "We don't get paid, my crew don't eat." Whether or not that's the actual PC motivation, it makes for a good dismissal of naysaying. Why are we sticking our necks out? Gotta make money somehow. This assumes, of course, that the payday in front of them is more attractive than a potential payday they could get doing something safer.
So that said, it's usually more effective to tie adventures into some other element of the PCs' history or interests. Some person related to them got hurt or killed--even if it's a relation that didn't exist before this adventure. That old war buddy who shows up in a box, or that letter from Mom saying how she wants you to go bail out your cousin. Or just something that ties into their specific interests: the chance to stick it in the eye of the Stupid Government, to take out the sort of criminals you hate, that kind of thing. Even with a published adventure, there's usually some element you can tweak to make it apply directly to some of the players. Instead of Some Guy stealing Some McGuffin that has information about Some Entity, make the guy, or the mcguffin, or the entity into something that has compelling interest for at least one of the PCs.
Then, when the one PC starts going off about why are we doing this, we could just be flying rubber doggy doodle to Hong Kong instead, that one PC can speak up and say "because my mom needs her medicine, that's why!"
|
|
D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
|
Post by D.T. Pints on Aug 3, 2013 7:55:01 GMT -8
If you're only getting to play every two weeks for just a few hours maybe its time to "have shit happen". The pontificating player should be allowed some "WHY?" time. I think its important for players to discuss their characters motivations every now and then. It is a nice check to see where their understanding of the plot is and possibly what direction they are thinking of going. This always helps me think about up and coming story lines, plot hooks. But, eventually I want ACTION, ADVENTURE, and AWESOME in my games and I want "shit to happen!".
In the case above it sounds like the group has become enmeshed with several other rather powerful forces very capable of tracking them down. This doesn't have to be an immediate jack booted storm trooper assault. But, when the questioning player has been doing so for her fifteen minutes in the spotlight. While the other players are visibly starting to get annoyed (or you as the GM are getting annoyed) have a ship show up, have a stranger show up, have a stowaway show up, etc..just something that will demand their immediate attention and cease the conversing.
This is what made FIrefly such an amazing show for me. There would be these incredibly intricate, detailed story lines unfolding and then "shit would happen" and it would become full of action and plot twists. I've always felt thats a definite big responsibility of the GM, keep the story rolling. If you could play every week for four hours then maybe more time could be devoted to characters asking "WHY?".
I like to look at each session afterwards as an isolated event, like an episode of show. What about this episode was interesting? What about it dragged on and became boring ? Then how does this episode serve to tell the greater story? Massive story arcs and detailed motivations are great but if the single game session (the episode) wasn't engaging enough, exciting enough then I try to change that for the next one.
Great story by the way, I really enjoy hearing a GM break down their game and analyze it. Makes me always take another look at my own.
Cheers,
Curt.
|
|
|
Post by guitarspider on Aug 3, 2013 8:31:28 GMT -8
I think you should try to figure out why exactly she keeps asking "why" at inappropriate times. Ultimately, it may be the only thing that's really going to help you solve the problem, because it kind of sounds to me like there is a deeper issue than a gaming issue. Money is the universal motivator, of course, though a shallow one. Let me underscore your point by quoting Dogs in the Vineyard: "And that's pretty good story stuff, but well, it just ain't sex" My personal list would go something like love & sex , gender roles & gender expectations, honor & injustice, friendship & loyalty, and then maybe money, but not before greed. I can't honestly think of any fictional character going after money big time where desire for money was not the obvious expression of some hidden need.
|
|
|
Post by henryhankovitch on Aug 3, 2013 8:37:38 GMT -8
Yep, it isn't so much that money is everyone's highest motivator, but that it's usually a motivation that no one else can really question. So a character can use money as a cover for whatever motivation might really be driving him; and a player can use money to justify taking part in something that his character wouldn't necessarily jump at.
|
|
Max Damage
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 9
Preferred Game Systems: 5e, PbtA, Hero, Fate, Savage Worlds, Star Wars D6 & FFG, PDQ
Currently Playing: Savage Worlds
Currently Running: Savage Worlds
|
Post by Max Damage on Aug 3, 2013 18:34:18 GMT -8
If you're only getting to play every two weeks for just a few hours maybe its time to "have shit happen". . . have a ship show up, have a stranger show up, have a stowaway show up, etc..just something that will demand their immediate attention and cease the conversing. I agree with Curt that you need to have shit happen when the inevitable motivation questioning begins. For a game that is 2 to 3 hours every couple weeks, a 15 minute tangent on what is our motivation could be absorbing more than 10% of your play time. So, you need to be ready to act and act fast. In fact, as part of your game prep you might want to plan pontification interrupters, as there are some points that are more likely to result in her navel gazing than others. If you would like the interruptions to be more structured, you could take a page from Starblazer Adventures (a Fate based game using an older version of Fate). In this they describe a technique called Character Stress (Chapter 24) where you spell out specific events that will occur after a specific player has cumulatively performed sufficient actions to justify the event. I n this case, you could create a character stress track that gives her some leeway to question motives but after she has accumulated enough stress (in this case by inflicting real world stress on the other players) then events begin to happen. Her character stress doesn't reset, instead it just keeps accumulating with more dramatic things happening over time as she pontificates more and more. I would suggest finding ways to make the consequences deeply personal to her character, like she discovers while she is questioning the motivation, that the murders that have been occurring are using a technology that she invented before she retired from being a scientist, so she is indirectly responsible for the murders. While she still might be questioning the motivation, it would actually allow the other players to turn the table on her and start questioning her motives for trying to stop or slow down the investigation. Or perhaps take a more direct approach to endanger her. For example, the enemy knows that she attends combat through remote drones while the other characters don't. When she begins to question the motives, one of the stress events could be that Enemy Organization X storms her location while her colleagues are off fighting elsewhere. Now, not only will this stop her questioning the motives, it will be a direct negative consequence to her while leaving her colleagues out of it. I think it was great what your player did to express his displeasure, but this is the kind of player versus player stuff that can quickly lead to a game breaking apart. Players expect the GM to throw challenges at them (some might even say that they expect the relationship between player and GM to be antagonistic, but that is for another discussion thread). So, throwing consequences her way is completely acceptable. Having other players do it requires sophisticated roleplayers who know the difference between their characters and themselves. Finally, you should talk to the player about why she insists on questioning the motivation so thoroughly at the wrong time and if she even notices the negative effect it is having on the other players. There are many possibilities for her actions, including that she thinks her character would behave this way to she is completely oblivious to the negative effect her behavior is having on the game and the other players. It is my experience that too often we are all completely clueless as to how our actions impact others. I learned this when I managed to break-up a Fantasy Hero campaign because my healer was a religious zealot and two of the other players couldn't stand how aggressively I played it. At the time, I felt I was playing totally in character, in hindsight, I was too focused on me to see how I needed to adjust the way I played the zealotry so that we all were having fun, not just me. A good kick in my ass by the GM at that time would have been really helpful.
|
|
|
Post by bloodsparrow on Aug 3, 2013 19:22:36 GMT -8
Just responding to the original post.
If I was a player in this game and this member of my party suddenly stops and asks why are we doing this? My response would be to ask why are you asking that question now?
If she's been involved and complicit in the group's actions up to this point, what has changed to make her question why we are doing what we are doing?
I don't see a problem with going along a certain way, and then discovering new information that makes you want to change your mind about the road you're going down. Firefly is an excellent example of this, when you take into account the episode with the train heist.
However if she's bringing up this "Why are we doing this?" question in the middle of something important where time is of the essence, than the answer is "Now is not the time to talk about this. We need to finish what we are doing and then decide whether or not we're going to continue this routes when we're done".
If she consistently does this during combat, then at some point our characters are going to need to have a "come to Jesus meeting". Because if you can't trust her to have your back, then you can't trust her enough to have her around all. (That's kind of the Jayne-esque view of things... but this is Firefly so that's what I'm gonna go with.)
You'll note that this is all interactions that characters have with each other, this isn't your job as the GM. Perhaps you can give suggestions to other players on how to deal with this if it's really a problem for them. But there's nothing wrong with the character who has a habit of asking inconvenient questions. (See: Daniel in "Stargate: SG1")
|
|
|
Post by bloodsparrow on Aug 3, 2013 19:39:30 GMT -8
On reading the other reactions to the original post.
I agree with d20 Pints' point about making stuff happen if she stops suddenly to have an existential crisis at an inappropriate moment.
The problem in my view, is not that she asks uncomfortable questions, but the time she chooses to ask those questions.
In my previous post, I said the dealing with this isn't necessarily your job, but I do understand wanting to help keep things moving and on track in a situation where you don't get very long to play very often.
If the conversation happens before or after an event then I think you should just let it go and let the other characters to deal with this particular personality quirk of this character.
If she brings this up in an inappropriate moment while they're in the middle Doing Something where you have to stay on your toes… (Hacking into a computer system, breaking into a building, in the middle of combat, etc.). I think that it would be perfectly appropriate for you to interrupt the conversation by mentioning that Shit is going down. For instance someone is starting to notice that you were hacking into the mainframe, or there is a security bot rolling down the hall towards whoever is breaking into the building, or just give some negatives to the defense of her drones and they start getting taken out because she's distracted with her philosophical quandary.
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Aug 3, 2013 20:04:56 GMT -8
That's a good point - existential crisis. Introduce her character to Camus' Sisyphus ie: an NPC who lives and breathes what Camus would call 'the absurd' as exemplified by the myth Sisyphus (thus the name of his book). Such an NPC would do things simply because 'to do nothing would negate my existence' and would argue that 'anything anyone does is ultimately without meaning or pointless - that is absurdity of existence'. If fact give one of the other players some homework - get them to read The Myth of Sisyphus. I'd recommend Being and Nothingness by Sarte as well but it's heavy duty read and long. However, with the stuff by Camus freshly in mind said player should be able to so convolute said questions of motivation and directly address the existential nature of said existential crisis that I'd be surprised if the question came up again for quite a while. Camus is a very good primer for overloading the cognitive processes of people who seek meaning and wish to attribute significance/relevance to all the minutia of life - he basically argues that life as it is lived has no true meaning or purpose and accepting that is liberating. Aaron
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2013 20:30:40 GMT -8
It hasn't been brought up yet, but I wonder if maybe she as a player isn't really enjoying the adventures you've put forth and is bored, thus all the questions. She is trying to find a hook that will keep her interested in the story and she isn't finding it. You may have an issue of her wanting a different kind of game then what you and the other players are going for.
Honestly I'd sit her down and ask a few questions about if she is having fun and where she would like to see things go. Getting that information will give you a better gage of how to deal with her without being confrontational or having to worry about her getting offended by your critiques of her play style.
|
|
|
Post by Stu Venable on Aug 3, 2013 21:07:50 GMT -8
If you craft your adventures as Henryhankovitch suggests, your players WILL have an answer as the "why" they're taking a particular course of action.
Your best friend's wife is actually giving you an opportunity to stretch your GMing skills. Can you craft an adventure where she won't question why? Or craft an adventure where the players can answer that question with surety?
|
|