|
Post by bloodsparrow on Oct 29, 2013 6:58:57 GMT -8
Great episode!
While I was listening I suddenly remembered the very first time I sat down to the first game of my first regular D&D group (2e).
After my character was introduced (a Half-Elf Rogue), the player sitting next to me gave me a 50gp gem.
I don't mean his character gifted my character with an amethyst as a way to welcome her into their adventuring band of comrades... I mean the first thing he ever said to me was, "Here's a 50 GP gem." Then crossed it off his character sheet... Then said nothing else for a while.
Real charmer that guy.
|
|
D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
|
Post by D.T. Pints on Oct 29, 2013 7:17:44 GMT -8
The Ladies love them 50 GP gems...and chocolate.
|
|
fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
|
Post by fredrix on Oct 29, 2013 8:08:05 GMT -8
fredrix The only point of disagreement I would have is that it isn't acceptable regardless of who's at the table. Even if there are no ladies at the table the sort of behavior that Gina witnessed is not acceptable. Period, end of story. JiB Yeah, but the point is, no-one said that at Gina's table. So actually whether it was acceptable of not, it WAS accepted, both in-game and in RT. And that's kinda sad. As I say,if they were all 14, they might not know any better. And Gina might have been able to set them straight on the matter. But if they had any experience of life at all, it feels like society is conditioning people to accept it, and you'll note, leaving Gina unsure whether she could say anything.
|
|
|
Post by ayslyn on Oct 29, 2013 9:04:41 GMT -8
Well, let me explain further... I'll use literary examples for one side.
I've read two books where there was a rape "on camera" (and I use that phrase fairly loosely). Thomas Covenant, and Song of Ice and Fire (I forget which book specifically). I think in both instances, it was handled "well" (for whatever that means in this case).
Thomas Covenant rapes a girl "on screen" but Donaldson doesn't go into any real detail, I can understand WHY Covenant did it (which is different from agreeing, just to be clear), and he goes through a very real gamut of reactions to it from denial that he did it, through remorse, and trying his best to atone. It's never portrayed as a reasonable or good act, even while he's denying it.
In SoIaF, during the riot in Kingslanding, a minor character is caught by the mob and raped. This happens almost entirely "off screen", She's pulled from her horse during the riot, and then many pages later you find that she was rescued and now she's pregnant. Now this one is dicier. Convenant's rape plays a big part in who he becomes, and what happens to him. It's a pivotal event who's removal would have drastically changed the books. The Riot was plenty realistic, so this wasn't necessary, and nothing really comes of it. If this tidbit had been removed (so far) nothing would really change about the story. And, while I see it as having been discreetly included, I can understand how some would say that it seems more like it was brushed aside as unimportant.
To me, it has nothing to do with who's at the table, gender-wise. It has to do with how it's treated.
Also, in the interests of full disclosure, I've never included a rape in any of my games, nor played in one where it was included. I don't think that I would... I just don't agree that any particular topic is 100% taboo. I think that the context of how it's included and how it's handled is important.
|
|
fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
|
Post by fredrix on Oct 29, 2013 11:42:59 GMT -8
The ladies talked about the overuse of rape in fiction as a motivator (or formative experience) of "strong women" heroes. And I agree that it's too "easy" a cliche in modern fiction.
But if we're going to discuss fiction, then I have to bring up the last episode of Firefly. Where Jubal Early asks Kaylee, apropos of nothing "Gave you ever been raped?". It's so creepy, ugh, horrible even thinking about it now, but so narratively powerful. I think it's a brilliant line. Of course I don't think Early was ever considering the act himself, he was just using it as a psychological attack, to ensure her compliance while he searched for his real prey, River.
But could I use that line in an RPG scenario, from an NPC to a PC?
Oh no. Not know I'm a grown-up.
|
|
maxinstuff
Supporter
Posts: 1,939
Preferred Game Systems: DCC RPG, Shadowrun 5e, Savage Worlds, GURPS 4e, HERO 6e, Mongoose Traveller
Favorite Species of Monkey: Proboscis
|
Post by maxinstuff on Oct 29, 2013 12:14:30 GMT -8
fredrix The only point of disagreement I would have is that it isn't acceptable regardless of who's at the table. Even if there are no ladies at the table the sort of behavior that Gina witnessed is not acceptable. Period, end of story. JiB HAHA - You said period!
|
|
maxinstuff
Supporter
Posts: 1,939
Preferred Game Systems: DCC RPG, Shadowrun 5e, Savage Worlds, GURPS 4e, HERO 6e, Mongoose Traveller
Favorite Species of Monkey: Proboscis
|
Post by maxinstuff on Oct 29, 2013 13:04:25 GMT -8
The ladies talked about the overuse of rape in fiction as a motivator (or formative experience) of "strong women" heroes. And I agree that it's too "easy" a cliche in modern fiction. Damn right. Why does rape always result in a pheonix like rise and transformation into a badass? I mean, come on...... Where is all the fiction about rape causing a long, steady descent into mental illness and substance abuse? Oh wait.... *walks over to reference section* Found it!
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Oct 29, 2013 16:52:45 GMT -8
Hmmm a lot of blanket statements with no qualifiers - that's about as far from grown up as we can get. . . . Each situation should be taken in context. Sometimes the word 'rape', in a sexual assault definition (because one can 'rape the land' or plant 'rapeseed'), can be in bad taste and/or designed to intimidate the player in person at other times it can, in the correct context, drive a fictional narrative be it RPG's, film or books. For every bad example there can be cited an appropriate example . . . The key is 'appropriate' rather than the word or concept itself. Just for the record rape is not a gender exclusive assault. Recent studies have returned results that just as many men as women are raped everyday - the incidence of reporting is lower for men due to societal and cultural factors that discourage the reporting. Included in this statistic is revelation of certain established religious bodies in the treatment of their male pupils in the liked of Ireland and the UK. Though most of these studies take pains to point out that men are not the sole aggressors. There is a myth that such rape is a physiological impossibility and thus another factor that contributes to the low incidence of reporting (the 'no one will believe me' fear which goes along with the 'if he could perform he must have enjoyed it' fallacy) Rape is a concern for all genders as both victims or instigators. It, like most things, does not 'belong' to one group or another. The most disturbing aspect of this turn in the conversation are the base assumptions that perpetuate the problem. Everyone has to take responsibility - because anyone could be a victim. Sensitivity in RPG's, again, shouldn't be a gender issue: it's just basic human decency . . . Too often the lesson of the feminist movement (as exampled by Germaine Greer) is forgotten, that being that it applies to everyone - all genders. Gender Equality is about making gender irrelevant not pointing out the differences. Aaron
|
|
PithyKoan
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 22
Preferred Game Systems: D&D, Savage Worlds
Currently Playing: D&D 5e (Dark Sun)
Currently Running: One-Shots
Favorite Species of Monkey: Pygmy Marmoset
|
Post by PithyKoan on Oct 29, 2013 18:46:50 GMT -8
On a happier note, I had a great time sitting in on the live chat for the full show for the first time, and I also got to hear a letter I sent in only a month ago read and responded to by our lovely lady hosts. It was an awesome night. Thanks again!
|
|
|
Post by ayslyn on Oct 29, 2013 18:47:25 GMT -8
Where is all the fiction about rape causing a long, steady descent into mental illness and substance abuse? I realize this was half facetious, but... The hard truth is because it doesn't make for Good Story. It takes a damn good writer (or a Russian *waves as Chekov*) to make something like that readable (let alone good). And even then, most people don't want to read something that is so depressing that they start thinking about opening a vein (*waves at Chekov again*). We read to escape and empower. That's why tragedy becomes a catalyst for strength and positive growth in fiction.
|
|
|
Post by Stu Venable on Oct 29, 2013 20:32:20 GMT -8
It takes zero effort to not have rape in your RPG. Seriously. I've been running games for 30+ year, and not one rape.
It is such an emotional minefield, that I don't see the need for it. I realize the dramatic tension that can arise from the *threat* of it, but even then, we risk alienating players (or worse).
You know what makes even better dramatic tension? A well-crafted betrayal. An expertly performed swindle. A villain who, like a surgeon, cuts out every means of support a party has.
There are TONS of ways a GM can engender a sense of hatred, vengeance, powerlessness, or whatever, in the PCs without resorting to the rape hammer that seems to be the only tool in every Bizarro fiction hack-writers' toolbox.
Let's elevate the hobby above that.
|
|
HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
|
Post by HyveMynd on Oct 29, 2013 23:09:01 GMT -8
I had a post before about one of my PCs being a victim of a sexual assault in a Monsterhearts game and what an intense experience it was for me as a player. I'm not going to tell people to not have rape in their games, but neither am I going to condone it either. I will say that it's not a subject to be taken lightly or to be used for comedic purposes. If you do include it, you'd better be damn comfortable with all the players at your table, and you'd better be ready to handle the consequences, both in and out of game.
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Oct 29, 2013 23:47:19 GMT -8
It takes zero effort to not have rape in your RPG. Seriously. I've been running games for 30+ year, and not one rape. It is such an emotional minefield, that I don't see the need for it. I realize the dramatic tension that can arise from the *threat* of it, but even then, we risk alienating players (or worse). You know what makes even better dramatic tension? A well-crafted betrayal. An expertly performed swindle. A villain who, like a surgeon, cuts out every means of support a party has. There are TONS of ways a GM can engender a sense of hatred, vengeance, powerlessness, or whatever, in the PCs without resorting to the rape hammer that seems to be the only tool in every Bizarro fiction hack-writers' toolbox. Let's elevate the hobby above that. Just to be fair though it isn't just limited to Bizzaro fiction. It appears it many traditional stories, legends and myths - Boudica's daughters for example. The likes of Chekov and to bring it closer to home - Steinbeck's Of Mice & Men. The list goes on . . . The reason we collectively gloss over this is again context. The bizarro writer uses it in a gratuitous manner which, contextually, makes it disturbing (but then such an author *could* argue that is the underlying purpose of their fiction) and thus we react against it, other writers have used it in a less confrontational manner or less gratuitiously so we fail to react in the same manner. Dare I say there is a very popular female writer in the UK who uses it all the time - her works polarise opinion but not because of her use of rape rather because some, like myself, find her 'true life gangster stories' to be poorly written popularist fantastical garbage with about as much wit subtlety and innovation as a brick, yet her books can be found cramming the secondhand fiction shelves of every good charity shop. Now I agree that it's heavy handed in RPG's and shouldn't be a vehicle for dramatic narrative in a collaborative storytelling game that is supposed to be fun!!! BUT those sentiments shouldn't be applied as blanket restrictions on the worlds of art or literature. If you don't like a book - don't read it, if you don't like a victim of the crime portraying their personal journey to recovery through artistic catharsis - don't go to their exhibition. That's the difference in context between using it in an RPG and using it in literature or art : the ability to choose to not look. Don't condemn the other mediums because of it . . . A lot of art is disturbing (eg Damien Hirst) it's a delicate balancing act and the subtle differences between an opportunistic pervert and an artist blur frequently. Not forgetting that art and literature are often works of politics - they're about the inequality of power and rape is about the abuse of power. Aaron
|
|
|
Post by jazzisblues on Oct 30, 2013 6:38:41 GMT -8
I have used rape as a plot vehicle in games from time to time, but it doesn't happen on camera, and a player making a comment like the one that happened to Gina is unacceptable regardless of who's at the table.
From a literary standpoint rape is a powerful emotional trigger. If it serves the story and the game then by all means it should be used as such. What I object to is the graphic gratuitous use of it on camera, but then to be fair I object to most such graphic gratuitousness.
The callous and thoughtless comment by the player in the game Gina was involved in would have been (and should be) beyond the pale of acceptability regardless of who was playing. That a lady was present does make it worse in my opinion but then again I'm old fashioned.
I perceive an increasing tolerance for violence in general in our culture.
I don't think we need to be promoting that tendency even by our inaction.
JiB
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Oct 30, 2013 7:34:39 GMT -8
|
|