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Post by CreativeCowboy on Dec 29, 2013 3:43:22 GMT -8
Player Mike: why do you want to be a Samurai? It might be time to ask how (in his words, not to invigilate him) he managed to become the Samurai he wants to be in the world at play around the table. Is there something that can be shared with the GM? Back story to be uncovered? The players (GM & Mike) have to come to an explicit comclusion that yes, for these reasons stated in such a player-player conversation, the player is a Samurai with "strings" (disads, etc) on him according to the world to be entered at the table. This approach strikes me as more collaborative. And there may be repercusions for that style of play Mike wants. This is a private GM to player talk. It is also an ingame feature of a unique play experience. What a story this could be! Is this guy wanting to play a Lone Wolf or Loose Cannon? Or maybe system does matter to the point where this player should not be allowed to play L5R? ] The pre-requisite (for some) low brow example: One does not have to become a gynecologist to enjoy sex or to get it right. Whatever happened to no wrong way to play? Certainly I am picking up on a barrier to Brian or the GM's game enjoyment that centres on a lack of communications between people. ReadTheFuckingManual! is not equal to player communications from my day of RPGs. Hobbling a player (new-to-hobby/experienced player, new to group/etc) with a "No and" read the goddamn rules/cannon is upsetting to hear. It shuts down player engrossment in an game more interested in the exploration with others rather than a scripted lockstep.... x-ref the recent BSG question. This potentially informs the Player with the cautious Ninja decisions.... what is his game play concept? (Does the player want the immersion of a "Ninja game package" to play a cautious game, for example? A typical immersion problem in lockstep.) And, yes, Brian is overstepping his bounds and that is a problem. This might be due to a lack of communication (and agreement) what type of game is to be played: programmed lockstep or social gestalt.
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Post by Kainguru on Dec 29, 2013 5:41:07 GMT -8
So, anyway . . . Stu Venable - Dangerous Journeys at a con?. Having dug out my old copy (bought but never played) I was thinking of doing exactly the same thing with Jackercon 3 or 4. Leafing thru it I realised why I never played it . . . the same reasons it had reviews slating it complexity. In gamer arrogance I skimmed the basic Mythus Prime and went straight to the 'advanced' game thinking <deep voice>'I must implement all these options'. I totally missed the chapter in basic Mythus about incrementally upgrading from Prime to Advanced. 20 fucking years it's sat on my bookshelf collecting dust before I realised what a thunderous cock punch of an error I'd made. The vocations, or classes, on further reading are just your PC's starting point - like an occupational backstory. With careful skill selection over time your PC can basically become what ever s/he wants. This idea appeals to me - the security of archetypes with the freedom to go beyond them. I got a copy of the Game World - Aerth off the ebays. An interesting take - it's our world just different - magic is real, fairies are real certain Empires never fell etc. stork - Stormbringer: try en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormbringer_(role-playing_game) this will clear up the editions confusion. Mongooses version is currently the latest one titled 'Elric of Melnibone RPG' There is an overhaul of the magic system to make it closer to the books after 3rd edition - which is why it was titled Elric! Stormbringer 5th edition sort of merges the two games back into one coherent whole again. Also check out www.stormbringerrpg.com. Aaron
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Post by Stu Venable on Dec 29, 2013 10:23:41 GMT -8
CreativeCowboy : I will overlook the insulting tone of your post and your construction of strawmen for the moment and address your concern. People who choose to play L5R are choosing to play the setting. The game mechanics are nothing special, and certainly not the reason someone would want to learn and run or play this game. So that really only leaves the setting. I'm certain that's why DJ and Brian wanted to play L5R. It seems like Dave was just looking for a game and had no investment in the L5R setting at all. There's certainly nothing wrong with that, and I would add that the real problem here is Brian. His behavior is flatly wrong. BUT, it is not unreasonable -- if you're going to play a campaign that lasts a year -- to ask those unfamiliar with the setting to familiarize themselves. The etiquette portion of the book (I looked it up) is 8 pages. Dave has *chosen* to play a Courtier, someone who is would be familiar with etiquette. Would we ask him to eventually learn the magic system if he was playing a Shugenja? Yes, eventually. Would we ask him to learn the dueling rules if he was an Iajutsu master? Yes. And a player playing a Bushi should learn the combat system. This is entirely different than your bullshit "read the book" strawman.
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Post by Stu Venable on Dec 29, 2013 10:32:52 GMT -8
Kainguru - I was kind of befuddled by a few review I read, saying the game is way too crunchy. Reading Chargen, I think I could make characters in 10-15 minutes tops. It seem a lot of people are making the assumption that the optional rules must all be included. I was a little floored. Ol' Gygax did a remarkably good job to convey the basic chargen and game mechanics clearly and concisely. I'm mostly interested in setting, as I think that's where you'll get Gygax's flavor.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Dec 29, 2013 11:54:07 GMT -8
Another approach to DJ's problem would be to have a NPC take a role supervising the characters. In the first session I ran I was blessed with a Scorpion clan NPC that I quickly gave that role to help out a player (playing a Scorpion character) who was new to the oriental mindset. Given that DJ's characters are pre-Gempukku, it sounds like it would be a perfect opportunity to introduce a "coach" character
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Post by Kainguru on Dec 29, 2013 13:39:19 GMT -8
Kainguru - I was kind of befuddled by a few review I read, saying the game is way too crunchy. Reading Chargen, I think I could make characters in 10-15 minutes tops. It seem a lot of people are making the assumption that the optional rules must all be included. I was a little floored. Ol' Gygax did a remarkably good job to convey the basic chargen and game mechanics clearly and concisely. I'm mostly interested in setting, as I think that's where you'll get Gygax's flavor. I think they all made the mistake I made 20 years - which resulted in my copy languishing on my bookshelf as a token to prosperity - I skipped Mythus Prime and went straight to Advanced Mythus and was swamped by all the optional crunch. Why? cause in my head I played ADVANCED D&D so of course I'd play ADVANCED Mythus assuming (wrongly) that it would be a self contained derivative system (like Basic D&D vs AD&D). It was only recently when I read an account of the games design that I realised my mistake - GG wanted to release Mythus Prime as a separate book to introduce the system but the business bods at GDW disagreed . . . maybe if Gary had had his way it's reception would have been different. As I flick thru my old copy I do think that given the OSRIC treatment it would be a 3rd as small and benefit from being concise. I also think the typesetting limitations of the day, in presentation and layout, hampered it as a product. The world book is basic a fuck off big sandbox . . . it's ancient/medieval earth with shades of Hyboria plus a hollow earth and the parallel Phaeree with the Seelie and Unseelie courts. It has includes an Egypt that never degenerated and the likes of Briton are classic Celtic Isles with Druids and Avalon etc . . . Somewhere in Aerth one can find most fantasy trope civilizations with 'real world' mythologies made real. It's such a shame it never got the opportunity to be developed, refined and EDITED Aaron
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Dec 29, 2013 15:04:35 GMT -8
CreativeCowboy : I will overlook the insulting tone of your post and your construction of strawmen for the moment and address your concern. People who choose to play L5R are choosing to play the setting. The game mechanics are nothing special, and certainly not the reason someone would want to learn and run or play this game. So that really only leaves the setting. I'm certain that's why DJ and Brian wanted to play L5R. It seems like Dave was just looking for a game and had no investment in the L5R setting at all. There's certainly nothing wrong with that, and I would add that the real problem here is Brian. His behavior is flatly wrong. BUT, it is not unreasonable -- if you're going to play a campaign that lasts a year -- to ask those unfamiliar with the setting to familiarize themselves. The etiquette portion of the book (I looked it up) is 8 pages. Dave has *chosen* to play a Courtier, someone who is would be familiar with etiquette. Would we ask him to eventually learn the magic system if he was playing a Shugenja? Yes, eventually. Would we ask him to learn the dueling rules if he was an Iajutsu master? Yes. And a player playing a Bushi should learn the combat system. This is entirely different than your bullshit "read the book" strawman. Please accept my apology for sounding insulting. I guess being insulting has kinda rubbed off on me. It is not unreasonable to ask, no. In my experience I created a Wiki for my homebrew world as well, no less important than an L5R sourcebook. But I do not feel it should be crucial to someone else’s enjoyment of the game for them to read it. I do not see a strawman here. I see someone is butthurt over an expectation – that being evidenced by Brian at the table. Sort of like I could be with my players if they did not read my setting, no? If my player wants to play a Fae Elf that trumpets his presence to the other races rather than play according to the rules of Alfheim culture….. or to play a Lone Wolf, then so be it. After I have the player’s concept (and I understand what the player wants from the game) then I can let the player learn in game about the consequences to their actions. Smells like a side story to me. Is it wholly inconceivable that a player would play a character that bucks with conformity? And if that is not outlawed outright, is it not part of my player inclusion to understand my player’s concept; and while not changing the whole world at least have the world react to the player agency (appropriate to the world)? Why not engross the player with the “real life” of the world at the game table, rather than a script telling how it is done? Showing, as the cliché goes, always has more impact. Or would that not be part of the RPG experience? Let us say that the consequence is that this character has a limited playability (lifespan, resources, etc) because of how its world views its actions. Is it the GM’s responsibility to keep this character alive? (I do not think so though I highlight there is a social communication that can be as effective as or moreso than a book available here.) Is it the end of the world for the player to roll up a new character, as a worst case scenario? I think this sort of example was just handled by you to me, right now, no? You communicated that you felt I was insulting. I responded with an apology. Isn’t that at the heart of what RPGs are about too: communication? PS. I would be remiss I think on The Internets not to thank you for the communication. This builds trust. We can still disagree and hold different opinions but the fact you courteously communicate to me is appreciated. Another approach to DJ's problem would be to have a NPC take a role supervising the characters. In the first session I ran I was blessed with a Scorpion clan NPC that I quickly gave that role to help out a player (playing a Scorpion character) who was new to the oriental mindset. Given that DJ's characters are pre-Gempukku, it sounds like it would be a perfect opportunity to introduce a "coach" character Player engrossing in-game brilliance THIS!
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Post by arturick on Dec 29, 2013 16:54:21 GMT -8
Several people in my groups over the years have brought up the idea of playing L5R, and I have always responded with a resounding...
I'm simply not up on the numerous cultural kinks of the world, and I have NO patience for a game where I'm going to be constantly told, "No! Your character would do THIS, not THAT!" I don't want to sit through an anthropology course just to find out what my character's basic personality and motivations are going to be.
I asked a potential L5R GM if I could play some kind of foreigner and be a stranger in a strange land. The response was, "Sure, if you want everyone to treat you like shit and you're willing to have your head cut off the first time you accidentally look a samurai in the eyes."
That said, I am sympathetic towards people who (are usually Japanophiles) want to play L5R the "right" way. I'm a Forgotten Realms fanboy, and I'd love to play with a table that won't give me blank looks if I say something like, "This can't be right! The divination says the spell was granted by Myrkul. That's not possible!" (Myrkul is dead, and the former god of death, which is totally meta.)
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Post by Stu Venable on Dec 29, 2013 19:27:43 GMT -8
Apology accepted.
I think the NPC-as-setting-guide might work, but is it really that different that the GM saying, "your character would know not to do that," over and over again?
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Post by malifer on Dec 29, 2013 20:34:24 GMT -8
People who choose to play L5R are choosing to play the setting. The game mechanics are nothing special, and certainly not the reason someone would want to learn and run or play this game. So that really only leaves the setting. I'm certain that's why DJ and Brian wanted to play L5R. It seems like Dave was just looking for a game and had no investment in the L5R setting at all. Based on the minor mention early in the email that the previous games played/run by Mike were 3.5 D&D, I wonder if Dave really wanted to played L5R at all. He likes 3.5 and ROLLplaying with a touch of the Thespian Acting. This is how the scenario played out in my head from the email. Like many GMs DJ got his hand on a new game he really wanted to play and went to find players. Because it's the game no one wants to play he found 2. (it could be scheduling, but I like the HJ myth that there are hundreds of wanting l5r gms with no players) Brian liked it because and DJ are both Japan fans. And I think Mike might have been brought along for the ride because he is a friend and gamer. It's time to make characters and DJ explains the the basics clans, classes, etc. Each player hones in on what they like. Brian grabs the ninja. Mike likes to play charismatic D&D characters and that translates into Courtier. I think if Mike really wanted to play L5R he would have read the 8 pages Stu mentioned, but if he wasn't excited enough from the beginning to read the book, then after sitting down for some "Fun" with friends that turns into a history lesson from one person and being berated by the other person probably wont convince him. It sure as hell wouldn't inspire me to read. It's not as if there is going to be a fucking montage where Mike reads the book, practices proper bowing, then shows up to the next game and earns the respect of the Sage, while nonviolently besting the Bully antagonist. This comes down the new game problem. What do you do when you want to start playing a new game. If you want people to play by the rules. You have to then give them homework. If you expect them to play the game like the book says then they need to read the book. And you should tell them that before the game starts. Because a lot of people wont want to play. If your willing to let someone play Spock in your Star Wars game, be sure to let the idiot with Jar-Jar Binks tattoo know that this isn't going to follow the rules. Maybe he wont want to play. I try my best to have as little homework as possible. Hopefully the new game will be fun and it will inspire the players to read the book afterwards.
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Post by stork on Dec 29, 2013 20:57:57 GMT -8
People who choose to play L5R are choosing to play the setting. The game mechanics are nothing special, and certainly not the reason someone would want to learn and run or play this game. So that really only leaves the setting. I'm certain that's why DJ and Brian wanted to play L5R. It seems like Dave was just looking for a game and had no investment in the L5R setting at all. Based on the minor mention early in the email that the previous games played/run by Mike were 3.5 D&D, I wonder if Dave really wanted to played L5R at all. He likes 3.5 and ROLLplaying with a touch of the Thespian Acting. This is how the scenario played out in my head from the email. Like many GMs DJ got his hand on a new game he really wanted to play and went to find players. Because it's the game no one wants to play he found 2. (it could be scheduling, but I like the HJ myth that there are hundreds of wanting l5r gms with no players) Brian liked it because and DJ are both Japan fans. And I think Mike might have been brought along for the ride because he is a friend and gamer. It's time to make characters and DJ explains the the basics clans, classes, etc. Each player hones in on what they like. Brian grabs the ninja. Mike likes to play charismatic D&D characters and that translates into Courtier. I think if Mike really wanted to play L5R he would have read the 8 pages Stu mentioned, but if he wasn't excited enough from the beginning to read the book, then after sitting down for some "Fun" with friends that turns into a history lesson from one person and being berated by the other person probably wont convince him. It sure as hell wouldn't inspire me to read. It's not as if there is going to be a fucking montage where Mike reads the book, practices proper bowing, then shows up to the next game and earns the respect of the Sage, while nonviolently besting the Bully antagonist. This comes down the new game problem. What do you do when you want to start playing a new game. If you want people to play by the rules. You have to then give them homework. If you expect them to play the game like the book says then they need to read the book. And you should tell them that before the game starts. Because a lot of people wont want to play. If your willing to let someone play Spock in your Star Wars game, be sure to let the idiot with Jar-Jar Binks tattoo know that this isn't going to follow the rules. Maybe he wont want to play. I try my best to have as little homework as possible. Hopefully the new game will be fun and it will inspire the players to read the book afterwards. Yeah what he said......
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Post by ayslyn on Dec 29, 2013 22:09:27 GMT -8
If my player wants to play a Fae Elf that trumpets his presence to the other races rather than play according to the rules of Alfheim culture….. or to play a Lone Wolf, then so be it. After I have the player’s concept (and I understand what the player wants from the game) then I can let the player learn in game about the consequences to their actions. Smells like a side story to me. So long as your player knows going in that it's gonna have consequences, then everything is kosher. If you ambush him with it, then it's just you (in the generic) being an ass. I had a player who wanted to play a dwarf who was raised by two gay parents, and was unsure of his own sexuality. He would shave his beard off. I told him that was fine, but other people in the world were probably going to react poorly to something so unusual. He sputtered at me that it would be prejudiced for them to do that. I looked him straight in the eye and said, "Yup. That it would." On the L5R game in question... Brian needs to stop being a dick. Dave needs to learn this question, "What would the appropriate protocol be here?"
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Dec 30, 2013 0:11:33 GMT -8
Apology accepted. I think the NPC-as-setting-guide might work, but is it really that different that the GM saying, "your character would know not to do that," over and over again? Thank you, stu. For precisely the reason that it happens in-game, yes. No different than the idea of playing a foreigner. It relies more on story than rules to inform the character. Plot hooks abound where there were none before. Where does this NPC come from? How is it connected to the PC? These questions canbe a source of player engrossment. It can also be a tool to show approval to Brian in-game; I am talking about a valve to keep the munchkin in him from bubbling over.
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Post by Kainguru on Dec 30, 2013 0:18:17 GMT -8
Well, as a practicality, 'we' cannot influence or change Mike or Brian . . . Only the GM. So, having asked the question, what can the GM do? A) change games B) run a Dallas episode (it was all a dream) and don't hang back on the consequences - the adventures of the discourteous courtier and the reluctant ninja . . . C) sit down with a beer and both of them and just say it you see it. Politely. Make Mike a crib sheet for honour and protocol and give Brian firm directions about what his masters expect of him as a ninja (ie: rather than 'investigate and solve' he should be charged with 'find this information from x by the night of y, we know that x will be meeting with z here you must be there and find out what x says to z'.) Aaron
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Dec 30, 2013 1:20:39 GMT -8
Apology accepted. I think the NPC-as-setting-guide might work, but is it really that different that the GM saying, "your character would know not to do that," over and over again? Well it worked for me, because the NPC was able to occasionally be more gentler than a GM saying "your character wouldn't do that" (which must be one of the most anti-immersion things than can happen in RPGs). The player is able to make smaller mistakes and deal with the consequences in-game, where the NPC can be more scathing in character that then GM should be. And the NPC is able to stop the PC making larger mistakes that might disrupt the game world. The NPC can role-model the correct behaviours. And as CC points out, the NPC can reward good play in-game. In my own particular case, the player in question was encouraged enough to download (I think pirate copies of) loads of L5R material and now know more than I do about what correct behaviour in Rokugan might be (without turning into a Brian)
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