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Post by Kainguru on Sept 17, 2014 6:41:14 GMT -8
As player I, historically, preferred half-elfs. I know why their 'being of 2 worlds but not belonging to either' reflected my social circumstances, as a teenager, that I could relate to (born in NZ but grew up in OZ - I still have NZ infections with my OZ accent). The bonuses etc never really entered into it, for me personally, it was always more the concept. Thus I was surprised, and bit 'concerned', when a discussion with other players/GM's I game with provoked a comment from one - "I'm rather liking the DragonBorn in 5e, have you seen their bonuses". Now, to be fair, it was a bit of social trolling by that person (knowing I dislike DragonBorn and 'building to bonuses rather than concept') but it did succinctly sum up why I don't like DragonBorn and have an innate (and possibly unfair) suspicion of players who do 'like' them . . . Far easier just to ban the race from my games than risk being prejudice. It's very much like a mild variant form of Drizzt syndrome to me . . . Aaron
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Post by lowkeyoh on Sept 17, 2014 10:47:16 GMT -8
I suppose that depends on what you prioritize for "strongest".... Neither of them are particularly stronger than the other, or any other race, IMHO. High Elf - Cantrip (pretty good) lowkeyoh is right the High Elf is pretty badass, plus being a "pretty" race they shouldn't have many problems walking into a town because he doesn't look like a monster. But in a game of killing things and taking their stuff I think the Dragonborn still reign as the supreme cheese. Dragonborn - Breath Weapon and resist that damage. You're not accounting for Ability Scores. Ability scores are what bump humans from OK to amazing. And Elves into the upper tier, in my eyes. You also have to factor in the viability of Strength vs Dex. Now that finesse weapons gets to add dex to damage, as well as still adding to AC and being the stat for Stealth and Acrobatics. With the removal of adding 1.5xStrength to damage, a high strength build isn't as powerful as it used to be. The other question is is a breathe weapon better than a cantrip? Poison Spray and Fire Bolt damage scales better than Breathe Weapon, but breathe weapons are automatic hits. Blade Ward and True Strike are fantastic cantrips that any class can make use of. Also breathe weapon is a one and done ability. In my game I have a High Elf Cleric that is relying on True Strike + Sharpshooter Feat to crank up damage, which he can do at extreme range. Looking at the back of the book at the limited Bestiary, most creatures have a higher dex than con. So if you want to really be a munchkin dragonman, you go Poison or Cold cone. Now you have resistance to a less common element type. Or you go fire, target dex, but think about everything that has resistance to fire. All in all I think a well built Elf is going to be just as effective as a well built Dragonman, and without social baggage. This ALSO get's to my pet peeve of racial attributes. I feel they have no place in 5e any more. I get that back in the day Gnomes and Hobbits get less strength because their tiny and dwarves get less charisma cause they're gruff (which doesn't make any fucking sense as dwarven society would still consider them attractive and proper because charisma is such an abstraction and is socially dependent) Just let the player put a 2 in whatever stat supports their backstory and a 1 in another stat. Let's stop shoehorning arbitrary racial stereotypes. If you're a halfling and you've spent your WHOLE life learning to be a warrior, by god get your +2 strength and play the fuck out of the Fighter class.
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Post by lowkeyoh on Sept 17, 2014 10:50:02 GMT -8
As player I, historically, preferred half-elfs. I know why their 'being of 2 worlds but not belonging to either' reflected my social circumstances, as a teenager, that I could relate to (born in NZ but grew up in OZ - I still have NZ infections with my OZ accent). The bonuses etc never really entered into it, for me personally, it was always more the concept. Thus I was surprised, and bit 'concerned', when a discussion with other players/GM's I game with provoked a comment from one - "I'm rather liking the DragonBorn in 5e, have you seen their bonuses". Now, to be fair, it was a bit of social trolling by that person (knowing I dislike DragonBorn and 'building to bonuses rather than concept') but it did succinctly sum up why I don't like DragonBorn and have an innate (and possibly unfair) suspicion of players who do 'like' them . . . Far easier just to ban the race from my games than risk being prejudice. It's very much like a mild variant form of Drizzt syndrome to me . . . Aaron This is why I kinda like they inclusion of the race. It lets super special snowflakes and rollplayers to get their awesome class, and let's thespian styles to include Dragondudes into the narrative however they want. IE excuse for RACISM! Because no fantasy roleplaying game is complete without racism, and elves/dwarf conflict and "everyone hates orcs because reasons" is growing stale.
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Post by malifer on Sept 17, 2014 11:04:08 GMT -8
lowkeyoh fair point. I had forgotten about the uberstat Dex. And had underestimated the multi-use of the Cantrip. Dragonborn are cheesy but High Elves are Limburger.
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Post by lowkeyoh on Sept 17, 2014 11:08:58 GMT -8
My game right now. 1 Human, 3 High Elves, 2 Wood Elves, a Drow pretending to be a High Elf, and a Half-Elf.
God save my soul.
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tomes
Supporter
Hello madness
Posts: 1,438
Currently Running: Dungeon World, hippie games, Fallout Shelter RPG hack
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Post by tomes on Sept 17, 2014 11:49:32 GMT -8
a Drow pretending to be a High Elf Hmm... does he wear "white face" I wonder? Wow I would have soooo many NPCs constantly talking shit about drow in front of the party in this scenario. Very interesting indeed...
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Post by lowkeyoh on Sept 17, 2014 11:54:45 GMT -8
a Drow pretending to be a High Elf Hmm... does he wear "white face" I wonder? Wow I would have soooo many NPCs constantly talking shit about drow in front of the party in this scenario. Very interesting indeed... The Duke all the players are Knight's for hired her to perform a Drow-esque assassination on a rival Duke in exchange for magical disguise and a cushy captain of the guard job. Everyone else thinks the Duke is a great and noble guy. Most Drow out of water players play the "I'm so different" elf. She gave me her 12 point plan on how she's going to assassinate her way to the top of power. As well as her contingency plan on murdering each member of the party in their sleep. This swayed me to break my "no drow" rule.
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Post by ayslyn on Sept 17, 2014 16:22:13 GMT -8
You also have to factor in the viability of Strength vs Dex. Now that finesse weapons gets to add dex to damage, as well as still adding to AC and being the stat for Stealth and Acrobatics. With the removal of adding 1.5xStrength to damage, a high strength build isn't as powerful as it used to be. That's not entirely true, though. The Strength build doesn't require the Dex it used to to be as viable. A high Str build doesn't need any Dex, and can function quite nicely with a Dex penalty due to the way that armour is set up. Heavy armour doesn't factor Dex in AT ALL, bonus or penalty. And the upper limits of heavy armour exceed that of the Dex builds.
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Post by lowkeyoh on Sept 17, 2014 22:10:35 GMT -8
You also have to factor in the viability of Strength vs Dex. Now that finesse weapons gets to add dex to damage, as well as still adding to AC and being the stat for Stealth and Acrobatics. With the removal of adding 1.5xStrength to damage, a high strength build isn't as powerful as it used to be. That's not entirely true, though. The Strength build doesn't require the Dex it used to to be as viable. A high Str build doesn't need any Dex, and can function quite nicely with a Dex penalty due to the way that armour is set up. Heavy armour doesn't factor Dex in AT ALL, bonus or penalty. And the upper limits of heavy armour exceed that of the Dex builds. Let's consider two characters, one 20 Str/10Dex and one 10Str/20Dex Dual wielding or not Strength man ends up with 2d6+5 on damage, and with full plate 18 AC. Dex man ends up with 2d6+5 dual wielding, and a 17 AC. He's also not wearing full plate, so is way less conspicuous, has a +5 to initiative, not disadvantaged on stealth, can use ranged weapons effectively, and gets a bump to Stealth, Sleight of Hand, and Acrobatics. These all seem preferable to the 1 AC Plate wearers get. Plate also is ungodly expensive and has serious roleplay implications. Are you really going around town in Fullplate? Going to the bar in full armor all the time? Dex isn't the super stat it was, but it's still more flexible in my eyes than Strength is.
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Post by Arcona on Sept 18, 2014 2:03:27 GMT -8
Yes but does the breath weapon become something signifact on higher levels? Cause sure, if on level 1 a PC has... a rusty dagger and the Dragonborn PC has a rusty dagger and a 3d6 breath weapon you can say 'oh my Dragonborn are OP' but that breathweapon becomes kind of pointless when at level 8 it has become a 4d6 breath while the fighter does more damage with his full attack or the wizard with a fireball or the rogue with a sneak attack on every attack...
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Ecrodorias
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 21
Currently Playing: Rise of the Runelords
Currently Running: Mini Adventures
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Post by Ecrodorias on Sept 25, 2014 14:34:46 GMT -8
In the Pathfinder campaign I play in our new player decided to play a half-orc, and her background was not one of violence, but instead of a male orc and a female human in love raising a family that in a caring if stifling environment. In the same game I play a half-elven who has a family background of violence and hatred, mixed with a twisted one sided love story.
The backgrounds of mixed heritage races can be as complex as any story, and anyone who just insists that these races are just the products of rape as a get out is (while repugnant) an easy and boring story. Even if that is the background a player chooses, these things should have consequences that ripple throughout their characters lives. That can make even these dark stories far more interesting.
While I think that the half races are there for tradition, nothing more, they do seem to provoke the players into thinking more about the background of their characters, specifically how did these two disparate individuals get together, and how did their different backgrounds affect their kids?
For that reason, and that alone, the half races will have a place at my table.
Of course, in a typical fantasy D&D style game, if someone wanted to play a full Orc, I would likely let them, same as I would if they wanted to play almost anything, as long as it did not disrupt the group balance too unfairly, after all fantasy needs the fantastical heroes as much as the mundane heroes.
Ecrodorias
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Post by The Northman on Sept 25, 2014 17:19:04 GMT -8
I did something similar, playing a half-Orc whose parents were former adventures that wanted anything but that life for their son. I've also been attracted to half-elves in the past for the outcast relatability mentioned up thread.
Then again, I can sort if get behind the idea that the entire concept is nothing but a Tolkien phantom limb, too.
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