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Post by lowkeyoh on Sept 8, 2014 11:29:46 GMT -8
This is going to be a little ranty, and this might belong in the D&D or Pathfinder subsections, but this is something that's been bothering me for the entirety of my, though short, gaming career. Half-Orcs as playable races. This drive me up the wall.
Ok, so I know this is an artifact of the olden days of where monster society was as complex as "Orc's bad, kill them" and the podcast have had discussions on the morality of a "always bad society." We've touched on the morality of killing Orc babies, Stu and Bills treatise on Orc society, and long talks of bringing depth to previously black and white topics. Outside of PnP RPGs, we've had a DECADE of World of Warcraft Orcs. Pathfinder brought some pathos to Goblins and managed to make them a fleshed out race with some depth. Even our good friend Drizzt taught us that members of evil races can deviate from the norm and that evil races have to function as a society and make sense.
Why are we still treating Orcs as if they are some diabolical group of evil? Imps, demons, devils, zombies, skeletons, liches, dragons, and cultists are always going to be bad guys 99% of the time, unless you're specifically inverting those troupes, so why must we keep Orcs in this catagory?
What's the point in saying "Orcs are too evil to play, but here, once you're half human NOW you can be a hero!" That's insulting to Orcs and Orcish society. No fullblooded Orcs have ever been quirky enough to run away from home, meet up with some heroes in a tavern, and gone and murderhoboed their way into killing a dragon and taking its stuff? A world where Orcs are considered so dangerous they aren't going to let an Orc into town is going to let HALF-Orcs just freely waltz in? A world where you can bang a Dragon or a Demon and have kids that have higher standing then Half-Orcs?
It's time to break Orcs into two distinct groups: "Feral" Orcs and "Civilized" Orcs. Anytime you see someone who's a Half-Orc, let's just call them an Orc. In the game I'm planning Orcs that have organized societies have green skin and the generic bloodthirsty kill everything Orcs have red skin. Warlike group of Barbarians that will respect the laws of the land they are in so they can do trade with Humans? Greenskins. Stereotypical marauders that just murderhobo around the known universe? Redskins.
Under this system, Half-Orcs become something more akin to Half-Elves. You can play up the cultural identity part, and play down the "he's an Orc! Get him!" You still have your generic fantasy fodder race of baddies, but you also have a strong, possibly noble warrior race that cooperates with the rest of civilization.
Anyway, this has been bugging me a while, so I'm going to change it in my game and thought others might also be tired of the same old same old Orcs. Would love to hear thoughts on the topic.
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Post by Stu Venable on Sept 8, 2014 15:41:01 GMT -8
When Tyler joined my 4e game, he played an Orc.
I'd rather have Orc PCs than Half-Orc PCs, because most of the time, half-orcs imply rape.
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tyler
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Post by tyler on Sept 8, 2014 18:02:58 GMT -8
I fucking LOVED playing that Orc. I'm still bummed that I never got to start the revolution in that other world we went to. Sonsofbitches, treating my people like slaves...
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Sept 8, 2014 18:49:36 GMT -8
In my campaign there are no half-orcs, cause humans and orcs can't breed. Orcs are matriarchal, and are a race engineered by lizard men (which are also matriarchal, despite the "men"), to be an imitation of humans; originally engineered as soldiers, but no longer compliant... you know, some usual tropes.
Orcs are more similar to a barbaric tribal society, but there isn't anything necessarily evil about them... they're just tribal, which means "civilized" societies will look at them as savages.
All this means that although there will be civilization conflicts, you can avoid the whole "rape" thing, cause it's just not an issue. Also, although the society is matriarchal, it's similar to some fish where the female lays the eggs and then jets, and the male drops his load and now has to watch the babies. I.e. the females are the strong ones and the fewer males are the physically weaker sex, and just tend the nest. That is, except for those few males that are born with extra growth hormones... these become Ogres... (large, stupid orcs). However Ogres are mules (no ability to reproduce). Now if someone figures out how to cause more Ogres to be born (special food?), that'd be interesting.
In any game I play, I just change "half-orc" to "orc" for the purposes of character generation.
At least that's what's going on in my planet.
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Sept 8, 2014 22:42:31 GMT -8
One of my best short campaigns was in Rolemaster, based loosely on Richard Adams's book Shardik. I set the all human party off to raid the Goblin coast, then pointed out that goblins were worth more alive than dead, because of their physical strength. They'd killed all the adult males, but brought some females and children back to sell. They didn't get a great price for them but spent a few sessions trying out innovative ways to capture adult males.
The adventure was soon profitable, until a Goblin (who had a cool name that I can't remember now) started disrupting business. They were hunting him down when they realised "hold on, WE'RE the bad guys".
The look on their faces was priceless...
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snoman314
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Post by snoman314 on Sept 9, 2014 2:47:38 GMT -8
...They were hunting him down when they realised "hold on, WE'RE the bad guys". The look on their faces was priceless... Fantastic! Well done Sir!
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Post by kaitoujuliet on Sept 9, 2014 6:51:35 GMT -8
I'd rather have Orc PCs than Half-Orc PCs, because most of the time, half-orcs imply rape. You'll be glad to know that the D&D 5E player's handbook goes out of its way to state that half-orcs are not typically (in that world) born as a result of rape. It says that human and orc tribes sometimes ally, and half-orcs are born when the alliances are sealed with marriages.
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Sept 9, 2014 7:35:39 GMT -8
... It says that human and orc tribes sometimes ally, and half-orcs are born when the alliances are sealed with marriages. I kind of like that idea of half-Orc not as someone with an Orc dad and human mom (or vice versa) but as a general peoples who have mixed over time... Or a different example is that the "green" skins might also be called half-Orcs by others, maybe because the other "civilized" races think of them as less crazy and half-civilized... or maybe the "red" skin orcs call them half-orc as an insult. "Half-orc" in that case is totally derogatory cause the green skins are actually full orc, and you are either saying they are at least as good as half of a "better" race, or in the case of redskins, you are only half of what a "real" orc is. I like to think of half-elves as similar in some way... It's like Aragorn in LoTR; you can almost think of him as a half-elf (someone with an old bloodline that has some mix, lives to crazy old ages - for a Human). In my campaign there is a half-elf nation. This doesn't mean a bunch of bastards got together and started a kingdom. It means there is a region where elves and humans have co-mingled for a few hundred years and you have a race that has both qualities in some fashion. Not everyone there would have half-elf mechanics... maybe some elf families are purebloods and would be elves (and haughty and keep separate, or organize special houses), and some "half-elves" would really fall under Human as far as mechanics, since the elf blood is too weak (or non-existent).
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Post by Kainguru on Sept 9, 2014 8:05:17 GMT -8
... It says that human and orc tribes sometimes ally, and half-orcs are born when the alliances are sealed with marriages. I kind of like that idea of half-Orc not as someone with an Orc dad and human mom (or vice versa) but as a general peoples who have mixed over time... Or a different example is that the "green" skins might also be called half-Orcs by others, maybe because the other "civilized" races think of them as less crazy and half-civilized... or maybe the "red" skin orcs call them half-orc as an insult. "Half-orc" in that case is totally derogatory cause the green skins are actually full orc, and you are either saying they are at least as good as half of a "better" race, or in the case of redskins, you are only half of what a "real" orc is. I like to think of half-elves as similar in some way... It's like Aragorn in LoTR; you can almost think of him as a half-elf (someone with an old bloodline that has some mix, lives to crazy old ages - for a Human). In my campaign there is a half-elf nation. This doesn't mean a bunch of bastards got together and started a kingdom. It means there is a region where elves and humans have co-mingled for a few hundred years and you have a race that has both qualities in some fashion. Not everyone there would have half-elf mechanics... maybe some elf families are purebloods and would be elves (and haughty and keep separate, or organize special houses), and some "half-elves" would really fall under Human as far as mechanics, since the elf blood is too weak (or non-existent). Much like the protagonists thru out the many Shanarra Epics by Terry Brooks. They all share an elven bloodline from the ancient past - with varying degrees of efficacy as the line continues to dilute with each passing generation(s) Aaron
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Post by rickno7 on Sept 9, 2014 8:10:55 GMT -8
I don't care for the "half" anythings. The Half-elf goes back to Lord of the Rings with Beren, Luthien and eventually to Elrond, his brother and their descendants. I think in the earlier fantasy days when Half-elf got put as player characters they misunderstood the nature of that union. Its pretty obvious that the Baren and Luthien "marriage" was some sort of weird, magical union that the Gods had to approve and change to make work correctly. Even how their descendant's lives play out later is subject to special rules that don't follow "nature". At certain points in life or history, their descendants choose between a mortal or elven life. Elrond's brother chose to be mortal and became the first king of Numenor(this is where Aragorn's royal line originates).
With 5th Edition, I opened some of my old "rules" in favor of having a new world with as many options as I could bring my brain to accept. If someone in my group finds something in the "core" 3 books that they want really badly, I'm being much more obliged to allow it. After 10+ years of 3rd Edition(and its descendants) growing more closed off as I presented more unique worlds with various rules to make things interesting, I am making a world that is more general, more traditional D&Dish. But one of the things I'm holding is my house rule of no-halfs unless its a world changing plotpoint using magics and mysteries. No half-elf, no half-orc, no half-demons, no half-celestial.
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Sept 9, 2014 8:17:29 GMT -8
no-halfs unless its a world changing plotpoint using magics and mysteries. It's the PCs... of course they're involved with world changing plots. Just let them choose half-elf, and really understand that there are HUGE machinations going on in the back that approve or disapprove of such a thing. That would explain why certain sects, monsters, evil wizards, are all trying to destroy, capture, or dissect this half-abomination!
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Post by lowkeyoh on Sept 9, 2014 10:24:07 GMT -8
I'd rather have Orc PCs than Half-Orc PCs, because most of the time, half-orcs imply rape. You'll be glad to know that the D&D 5E player's handbook goes out of its way to state that half-orcs are not typically (in that world) born as a result of rape. It says that human and orc tribes sometimes ally, and half-orcs are born when the alliances are sealed with marriages. I was actually going to bring up the whole rape aspect in my full rant, as the Pathfinder Corebook all but states that Half-Orcs are the result of sexual violence, but the 5e book's stance on half-orcs is what stopped me. I think the 5e stance kinda solidifies my point. If human tribes are marrying into orcish tribes (or vice versa) they have to be of comparable morality or civilization. I can freely play a Human Barbarian from the frontier, but if I want to play and Orcish Barbarian from the frontier I get treated like a monster? This is just silly.
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Post by lowkeyoh on Sept 9, 2014 10:41:29 GMT -8
I am making a world that is more general, more traditional D&Dish. But one of the things I'm holding is my house rule of no-halfs unless its a world changing plotpoint using magics and mysteries. No half-elf, no half-orc, no half-demons, no half-celestial. Whatever works for your game, but I think an all out ban on half races really puts a damper on some solid roleplaying, depending on your players, especially if they are children of multiple cultures themselves. I remember when I got my fiancee into Pathfinder she very heavily identified with Half-Elves because she's half Polish half Filipino. Even if you don't personally identify with biracial protagonists, it can still have awesome in game effects. The last character I played was a quarter-orc (Grandmother was Orc Nomad in a clan that adopted my human Grandfather, married their daughter to a Cleric in a small village to cement trade relations between them) who had very strong ties to my Orcish heritage despite looking pretty human. There was a scene where we met up with some brutal Orcs who didn't speak Common and I shocked everyone by not only speaking Orcish, but actually knowing enough about Orcish culture to act as a negotiator. That scene was way cooler than "Big Scary Orcs ahead, roll initiative"
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Post by kaitoujuliet on Sept 10, 2014 6:42:25 GMT -8
While I can't get as worked up about it as the OP , I do wonder why orcs aren't a core race in D&D. Is it because a member of orc society, as described in the book, would not fit in well with an adventuring party? (That is: full-blooded orcs are under the influence of the god who created them, even if they reject his ways, and plus, IIRC, aren't orcs also nocturnal/unable to see well in daylight?) I don't see how it can be "because they're too evil," since tieflings are a core race. Of course, just because a race is in the Monster Manual, that doesn't stop people from playing them; people play drow PCs all the time, for example. And I'm sure WOTC must know that--so why don't they make a nod to it as an option? (They even mention drow specifically in the 5E PHB.) Maybe they figure those mature enough to handle such a concept will figure it out on their own, and it's best not to encourage very young players to try screwing over the party?? One could argue, of course, that orcs should just be rehabilitated and made "not evil," as in World of Warcraft, or like Klingons. I can see that position, but on the other hand, it leads to a cycle where some other race (say, gnolls) becomes the preferred enemy for a while, and then someone will come along to deconstruct and rehabilitate them, and then some other race has to take over as the enemy....
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Post by Stu Venable on Sept 10, 2014 10:32:26 GMT -8
Didn't 4e have a section in the back of the Monster Manual to make a lot of monsters PCs?
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