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Post by Probie Tim on Jun 30, 2015 17:21:08 GMT -8
In listening to the HJRP backlog, it seems like one of most oft maligned aspects of Savage Worlds is the disparity between melee combat (where TN = parry, which is 4 + half Fighting) and missile combat (where TN = 4). Even to me, a fan of Savage Worlds, it does seem to imply that the target is just standing there doing nothing while the shooter fires.
So why not make a quick house rule modification where the TN for a missile attack is 4 + half of the target's Agility? Or... maybe 1/3? It could even be further tweaked to say that the Agility bonus comes only when the target is aware of the incoming attack.
I dunno. Just an idle thought.
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Post by lowkeyoh on Jun 30, 2015 17:59:08 GMT -8
jazzisblues had a similar system in place before he decided to scrap it. Adding in conditional rules that tweaks ranged attack numbers complicates the game and slows it down considerably. The ranged rules seem overpowered but when you factor in range and cover modifications to TN they become much more balanced. Melee in SW can be more dangerous than ranged, even with it's static target number. Gang up makes quick work of high parries. With ranged attacks your having an easier time to hit for a harder time to wound. The usual damage is 2d6 and doesn't scale with any of your characters stats. Where as with a big ol' axe you might be throwing 2d10 in damage. You're up against a guy with D8 agility. You're in medium range. He's behind a door shooting at you. Now you need a 12 to hit him. This brings ranged combat to a stand still. One you do hit him with your pistol, his toughness is 6 plus 4 from his Flak Jacket which brings him up to 10. Now you have to roll 9+ on 2d6 to shake, 13+ to wound. Ultimately, it all evens out. Cover and Range penalties balance the hitting part and static damage balance the wounding part.
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Post by gandalftheplaid on Jun 30, 2015 18:41:20 GMT -8
Seems completely natural to me that ranged combat is a thing to be feared. I don't see the sword making much of a comeback any time soon. Echoing some of what Iowkeyoh said, I think disparities are amplified often because we (PCs and NPCs) tend to forget about diving for cover or keeping other people between us and the shooty person in the back.
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Post by jazzisblues on Jun 30, 2015 21:10:17 GMT -8
jazzisblues had a similar system in place before he decided to scrap it. Adding in conditional rules that tweaks ranged attack numbers complicates the game and slows it down considerably. The ranged rules seem overpowered but when you factor in range and cover modifications to TN they become much more balanced. Melee in SW can be more dangerous than ranged, even with it's static target number. Gang up makes quick work of high parries. With ranged attacks your having an easier time to hit for a harder time to wound. The usual damage is 2d6 and doesn't scale with any of your characters stats. Where as with a big ol' axe you might be throwing 2d10 in damage. You're up against a guy with D8 agility. You're in medium range. He's behind a door shooting at you. Now you need a 12 to hit him. This brings ranged combat to a stand still. One you do hit him with your pistol, his toughness is 6 plus 4 from his Flak Jacket which brings him up to 10. Now you have to roll 9+ on 2d6 to shake, 13+ to wound. Ultimately, it all evens out. Cover and Range penalties balance the hitting part and static damage balance the wounding part. I did, it's also not at all necessary. Use the rules as written ... ALL OF THEM ... and it all balances out and becomes very interesting. Main thing to remember, this ain't yer daddy's D&D where you stomp up to base contact and slug it out. Cheers, JiB
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Jun 30, 2015 22:01:58 GMT -8
It's also totally realistic, speaking as somebody who's been shot with an arrow. You don't dodge those fuckers, even if they do in the movies.
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Post by Probie Tim on Jul 1, 2015 6:27:11 GMT -8
You don't dodge those fuckers, even if they do in the movies. I don't think it's so much a question of dodge, per se... it's more a question of, well, I guess that in my mind it would probably be easier to pick off Samwell Tarly with an arrow than it would Jon Snow, because Samwell inherently isn't as quick as Jon and doesn't move around as much. That said, I get what everyone's saying. I'm not opposed to a fixed TN of 4 for missile combat, I was thinking more for those people who, on the podcast's backlog, have said something like, "I really love Savage Worlds but it sucks for fantasy because of the differences in melee and missile combat."
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Post by Probie Tim on Jul 1, 2015 6:38:41 GMT -8
Adding in conditional rules that tweaks ranged attack numbers complicates the game and slows it down considerably. So, at the top of the Savage Worlds character sheet, there's a "Parry" box. During character creation, you fill that box with the value of 4 plus half your character's Fighting skill. During the game if you get attacked, you just... look at that box and get the value and that's your attacker's TN. If, during character creation, at the top of the character sheet, you wrote the value of 4 plus half your character's Agility score and used that value when you were attacked with a missile as the attacker's TN, how does that complicate the game and slow it considerably? Even if, every once in a while, the GM has to say, "this is a surprise missile attack so the TN is the standard 4", I can't see how that will considerably complicate or slow the game. (Ultimately I agree with your points about missile combat, I've just never been a fan of the "complicates and slows the game considerably" argument for something like this. Maybe if it were a complex formula you'd have to calculate every round - some HERO-esque bit of tweakery-crunch or something - I'd agree.)
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Post by Probie Tim on Jul 1, 2015 7:29:46 GMT -8
Hey, lowkeyoh, that came off a lot snarkier than I had intended it. I guess I'm trying to say that in my groups, an additional half-second to look up a number other than 4 is not what complicates and slows down the game.
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Post by lowkeyoh on Jul 1, 2015 8:46:53 GMT -8
Hey, lowkeyoh, that came off a lot snarkier than I had intended it. I guess I'm trying to say that in my groups, an additional half-second to look up a number other than 4 is not what complicates and slows down the game. Determining what number to use isn't the slow down. The slow down is. Jim: And I rolled a 5, so I hit. Andrew: No you don't. Jim: Yes I do, you weren't aware of the attack. Andrew: Bullshit. He shot at me last turn, of course I'm aware he's shooting at me. Jim: But he left the room. You can't see him. You can't be aware of an attack from someone you can't see. Andrew: I'm not a toddler. I have object permanence. Just because the bad guy hides behind a door to take cover doesn't mean I forget he exists. Jim: Doesn't change the fact that you didn't see the shots coming. If you can't see the attack you can't defend against it. Andrew: Is he shooting blind? Jim: No, he peeks around the corner to shoot you. Andrew: Wouldn't I have seen him when he peeked around the corner? Doesn't peeking around the corner negate the element of surprise? Jim: No. Andrew: Why not? Jim: You're already punching this goon. The combat turn resolves simultaneously. You wouldn't have time to take evasive measures. He poked his head out while you were punching this goon, and shot you while you were distracted. Andrew: I thought the metric was whether or not I knew the attack was coming, not whether I could take evasive maneuvers against it. Just because the attack is coming from behind cover doesn't mean I'm not anticipating an attack from the armed nazi that has been shooting at me all combat. Jim: Yes it does. Andrew: No it doesn't. Jim: Yah-huh And in that time, the combat would have probably been over. But nooooooo. Jim had to change the ranged combat rules. The deciding which number to roll against isn't what slows down combat. It's adjudicating what is and isn't rolled against a 4. Furthermore, making it harder to hit in general is going to slow down combat. Also, you're playing a game where players have magic tokens that let them shrug off bullet wounds, is realism the most important part of gun combat? Furthermore, is 'being aware of your attack' really the best metric for deciding when you get to use you agility to dodge bullets? If I'm aware of Stu shooting at me and am taking evasive actions to avoid getting shot (Serpentine movement, dodging between cover, etc) does the fact that I don't know Stork is also shooting at me from a few feet to the left mean that it's easier for him to hit me? In my eyes there's not change that could be made to ranged combat that is going to make the game better.
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Jul 1, 2015 9:01:02 GMT -8
You don't dodge those fuckers, even if they do in the movies. I don't think it's so much a question of dodge, per se... it's more a question of, well, I guess that in my mind it would probably be easier to pick off Samwell Tarly with an arrow than it would Jon Snow, because Samwell inherently isn't as quick as Jon and doesn't move around as much. That said, I get what everyone's saying. I'm not opposed to a fixed TN of 4 for missile combat, I was thinking more for those people who, on the podcast's backlog, have said something like, "I really love Savage Worlds but it sucks for fantasy because of the differences in melee and missile combat." I still don't think there's that much difference between two humans, even Samwell and Jon Snow, when it comes to shooting them.* Between a human and a deer or rabbit, or other ravenous beastie, natural or fantastic, maybe. *and without give too much spoiler away, it seems Samwell can get out of danger quicker than Snow, according to the last series of GoT
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EssEmAech
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Post by EssEmAech on Jul 1, 2015 10:42:16 GMT -8
When a character in Savage Worlds might actually excel at predicting where a projectile will go, they spend the advancement slot and take the Dodge Edge and if they're better even than that, Improved Dodge. A -1 or -2 to ranged attacks is not nothing. It is, in fact, often a deciding factor. Especially against Extras.
The system is encouraging you to take cover when threatened with a ranged combatant. Which would be wise in the game and if it were in real life.
I've owned the game since the first printing. I've fiddled with lots of aspects of it. It really is just rock solidly designed (not that one has to like the play style) and every time I've gone back to the RAW and been happier for it.
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joegun
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Post by joegun on Jul 1, 2015 15:36:22 GMT -8
Yes as it has been said before, using the cover modifiers and such is how you handle the combat when it comes to ranged. The idea there is on a tactical game, you use movement, cover, etc to increase your chances of not being hit. So yeah TN 4 makes sense when you shoot a guy in broad daylight in the middle of the dessert. However you take a dark night, in an alley with a bunch of garbage, trashcans, etc now you are shooting at a much more difficult target.
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Post by ericfromnj on Jul 1, 2015 17:11:27 GMT -8
You don't dodge those fuckers, even if they do in the movies. I don't think it's so much a question of dodge, per se... it's more a question of, well, I guess that in my mind it would probably be easier to pick off Samwell Tarly with an arrow than it would Jon Snow, because Samwell inherently isn't as quick as Jon and doesn't move around as much. That said, I get what everyone's saying. I'm not opposed to a fixed TN of 4 for missile combat, I was thinking more for those people who, on the podcast's backlog, have said something like, "I really love Savage Worlds but it sucks for fantasy because of the differences in melee and missile combat." I ran a long sundered skies campaign in savage worlds. It does not suck for fantasy.
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Post by Probie Tim on Jul 1, 2015 17:35:47 GMT -8
Wow, and I thought my reply was kinda snarky. ...is 'being aware of your attack' really the best metric for deciding when you get to use you agility to dodge bullets? Probably not. My intent was to try to capture a D&D-esque "flat footed" or "surprised" feeling, which is an actual ruled condition in D&D and might not translate to Savage Worlds. Given that this is a theoretical discussion, it could easily be ignored on the grounds that it doesn't translate cleanly. In which case you're left with a fixed number at the top of your character sheet equal to 4 + half Agility, right next to your Parry value. Or, alternately, it could easily be tied in to the stock Savage Worlds surprise mechanic; if you're surprised, you don't get the Agility bonus. If you're not surprised, you do. ...you're playing a game where players have magic tokens that let them shrug off bullet wounds, is realism the most important part of gun combat? So, again, *I* am fine with the RAW; I'm going to use a fixed TN of 4 for missile combat in my games. I totally understand range and cover penalties and how they interact with the fixed TN. My initial post wasn't for me, I was just idly thinking of a possible solution for all the times I heard the disparity between melee and missile combat given as a detraction of Savage Worlds on the podcast backlog. I don't think that realism was the issue, I just think that some people felt that their character's skills and abilities should have something do with how easily hit they are in missile combat, as opposed to a stock, unchanging number which applies to every character equally. In my eyes there's not change that could be made to ranged combat that is going to make the game better. I picked up on that.
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Post by Probie Tim on Jul 1, 2015 17:39:28 GMT -8
...it seems Samwell can get out of danger quicker than Snow, according to the last series of GoT Psh, right? Effing Olly.
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