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Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Jun 26, 2017 21:27:54 GMT -8
That said given this is a pre-alpha, I'm sure when the players express their distaste, they"ll change it. I remember during the Feng Shui 2 KS, people objected to the "Scrappy Kid" having some sort of "Charm" schtick that sounded a bit Lolita - ish', and they changed that. Given WW and Paradox's current attitude toward their current controversies, I'm not sure if that will hold true. There's a boycott on right now by many podcasts, bloggers, and journalists that have covered White Wolf for years (some exclusively so) due to hiring Zak Smith and they've pretty much just brushed it off. Their commitment to edge seems very real.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
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Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Jun 27, 2017 2:16:58 GMT -8
Well if the concern is real, and they don't want to lose sales, I'll give them enough credit to not be edgy for cool's sake. But as I've said before, this might be the first edition I'd be interested in buying and playing, so sales they lose one audience, they might gain another.
(NOT that I'm basing an buying decision on how much Paedophila they include. Rather, I'm interested in a game where a monster is what people don't want to be. I'm from a pre-True Blood, pre-fuckingTwilight generation who believes that vampires are/should be a respresentation of the wickednes or evil in us all, to be fought, not embraced. )
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Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Jun 27, 2017 2:31:23 GMT -8
There's definitely an appeal for this system because it doesn't seem like it will become "Supers that happen to drink blood", nor will it be Katanas and Trenchcoats, but at the same time, the tone being set by Prelude, and now the playtest materials feels too try-hard for me to be interested.
More than that, I do appreciate the more monstrous tone. I've found too many game go off the rails in search of ways to get extra cool Disciplines, or someone wants to be an Abomination, but again, it seem s too much a step in the opposite direction where no matter what you do, you're going to be a complete bastard. I'd prefer a middle ground, where I'm going to be a monster at times, but there's also more to my character than that.
I hope they take a long hard look at their system and fix some major issues that I and many others have with it, but I'm not going to hold my breath. I like where I'm at with V20 and Requiem 2E.
Also big fan of what came before the young adult writer fascination with turning supernatural creature into unhealthy relationship goals. Grew up watching horror movies that I probably shouldn't have been at that age.
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Post by RudeAlert on Jun 27, 2017 10:13:19 GMT -8
Yeah, I'm all for dark and trying to make the Curse of vampirism actually feel like a curse. But then there's good/mature "Dark" and there's FATAL/immature "Dark." And I fear that the people in charge of Paradox and nuWhite Wolf, are a little too close to the FATAL developer's level of maturity. Hiring Zak Smith was not a good idea. Having someone like him on board, and then casually brushing off all mentions of his shitty behavior when it was pointed out to them does not endear me to the company. Honestly at this point, it's not even primarily about the game, it's mostly about the company behind it. I simply have no interest in giving them my money.
Now if they fix their attitude a little, basically stop being a bunch of juvenile, try-hard "edgy" kids, AND they make a good game, I might be curious enough to give it a try, but with things as they stand, I'm definitely out.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
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Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Jun 27, 2017 10:29:27 GMT -8
Who is this Zac Smith and what did he do? I tried googling, but all I get are pages of ranting forum posts, none pointing to what he actually did (except impersonating Shannon Applecline, who is a friend of a friend and hasn't mentioned anything about it in my hearing).
His art looks quite good.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
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Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Jun 27, 2017 10:31:10 GMT -8
Yeah, I'm all for dark and trying to make the Curse of vampirism actually feel like a curse. But then there's good/mature "Dark" and there's FATAL/immature "Dark." And I fear that the people in charge of Paradox and nuWhite Wolf, are a little too close to the FATAL developer's level of maturity. Hiring Zak Smith was not a good idea. Having someone like him on board, and then casually brushing off all mentions of his shitty behavior when it was pointed out to them does not endear me to the company. Honestly at this point, it's not even primarily about the game, it's mostly about the company behind it. I simply have no interest in giving them my money. Now if they fix their attitude a little, basically stop being a bunch of juvenile, try-hard "edgy" kids, AND they make a good game, I might be curious enough to give it a try, but with things as they stand, I'm definitely out. I hasten to add that I'm not accusing yours or sovereigncitizenkane's post of being "ranting" but there does seem to be a little of hate for Mr Smith about there.
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Post by RudeAlert on Jun 27, 2017 12:02:01 GMT -8
Yeah, I'm all for dark and trying to make the Curse of vampirism actually feel like a curse. But then there's good/mature "Dark" and there's FATAL/immature "Dark." And I fear that the people in charge of Paradox and nuWhite Wolf, are a little too close to the FATAL developer's level of maturity. Hiring Zak Smith was not a good idea. Having someone like him on board, and then casually brushing off all mentions of his shitty behavior when it was pointed out to them does not endear me to the company. Honestly at this point, it's not even primarily about the game, it's mostly about the company behind it. I simply have no interest in giving them my money. Now if they fix their attitude a little, basically stop being a bunch of juvenile, try-hard "edgy" kids, AND they make a good game, I might be curious enough to give it a try, but with things as they stand, I'm definitely out. I hasten to add that I'm not accusing yours or sovereigncitizenkane 's post of being "ranting" but there does seem to be a little of hate for Mr Smith about there. I'm not bothered by someone feeling that I might be ranting, I see absolutely nothing wrong with a good rant. Unlike far too many people on the interwebz I don't immediately dismiss an argument just because it's expressed in rant form. There are perfectly legitimate reasons in life to get pissed off about things, and expressing that pissed-offness in a rant is just as legitimate to me as doing so in a completely cold, vulcan-like fashion. All that matters is the facts, not so much how they are expressed; I also won't think any less of an argument just because someone swears or uses foul language. Again, substance over style. Also, believe me I wasn't ranting, you'll know when I'm ranting; my user name ain't just pretty words sonny. As for Zak and nuWhite Wolf, yeah the whole thing kinda pisses me off. From what I've read about him, Zak does seem like a bit of a shitbag, and nuWhite Wolf seem to either be willfully blind in hiring him and ignoring his history, or downright don't give a shit and have several times given a not-so-subtle middle finger to the fans who have expressed dissatisfaction with his involvement with the company. Now if you're looking for super-official accounts or legally admissible official transcripts of anything, you're not going to find that, he's basically just been a shitty, online dickbag to people, so it's not like there's a whole lot of well-structured documents and lists of events or anything like it; you kind of have to go around and read what you can find. Also, his shitstainery has been spread out over I think about 20ish years? So the individual events are kind of scattered all over the place. My opinion of him has been formed over a period of time, having read things here and there that painted a not-so-flattering picture. The best thing I can give you without devoting far more time to this than I feel like wasting is a link to an Onyx Path forum thread about this topic: forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/general/off-topic/1050412-white-wolf-hires-zak-smith-im-outI haven't read the whole thing but there are several links in there, which I also haven't all checked. I don't actually know if the thread does a good job of illustrating the situation, like I said I haven't bothered to read much of it since I really don't feel like wasting too much time on this particular topic. Hopefully it can at least provide a broad outline. The long and short of it is that there are quite a few people out there who really don't like Zak S. and for what I would say are pretty good reasons, and nuWhite Wolf coming along and spitting in everyone's face by hiring him and then acting like he's a totally swell guy is not a good way for them to endear themselves to fans, old or new.
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Post by ayslyn on Jun 27, 2017 13:07:01 GMT -8
I really can't agree with that characterization of WW stance. They at least began with saying, politely, that they heard the complaints, have investigated them, and disagreed with them.
That's not dismissing them, that's not giving them the middle finger. Perhaps , over time, the tone changed, but I suspect that might have been a response to people who believe that because they are customers that they are entitled to decide how the company is run. IF that was the case, I am firmly in WW corner.
If you would like to offer links to some of these posts, I would be happy to look them over to form a less speculative opinion.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
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Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Jun 27, 2017 13:45:09 GMT -8
Well that was a fun evening (not). And one that proves (again) that the internet can be a sick sick place. I'm not sure that I'd like Zac Smith if I met him, and I think he can do some very idiotic things, just to be a "controversialist". I now understand he's the bloke behind D&D with Porn Stars, which I've heard of. I think I am jealous of his propensity to have more kinky sex in a day than I get in a month. I think I am also jealous of his creativity. But, I do also think he is unfairly maligned by elements of our RPG community, who claim to speak for "the community". I've just read the majority of the 50-odd page thread that got him banned from RPG.net (fascinatingly about whether Monte Cook was right to include a succubus in Numanera) and most of his posts are rational, erudite and frankly, absolutely correct. I side with White Wolf (sorry, nuWhite Wolf) in this matter The best post I've found, after slogging though too much incomprehensible shit it this one. It seems to list everything in order. The author is I think on Zac's "side", but It's the evidence against him too and call him out on a number of things. Don't read it for the commentary however, read it for the chronology: falsemachine.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/a-timeline-of-zak-wars.html
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Post by RudeAlert on Jun 27, 2017 13:45:10 GMT -8
Alright, I found the link that I was originally looking for but couldn't find. Now, it is from RPGnet, so I personally take things there with a grain of salt given that I'm not particularly into the whole PC thing, nor am I overly self-righteous, but this particular thread does cover a lot of ground (and a fair bit of argument) as well as provide more links to various Zak S. issues. If you feel like having a looksie, I think this should cover pretty much all the main points, as well as a number of rebuttals a bit later on.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
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Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
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Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Jun 27, 2017 13:49:35 GMT -8
The best thing I can give you without devoting far more time to this than I feel like wasting is a link to an Onyx Path forum thread about this topic: forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/general/off-topic/1050412-white-wolf-hires-zak-smith-im-outI haven't read the whole thing but there are several links in there, which I also haven't all checked. I don't actually know if the thread does a good job of illustrating the situation, like I said I haven't bothered to read much of it since I really don't feel like wasting too much time on this particular topic. Hopefully it can at least provide a broad outline. The long and short of it is that there are quite a few people out there who really don't like Zak S. and for what I would say are pretty good reasons, and nuWhite Wolf coming along and spitting in everyone's face by hiring him and then acting like he's a totally swell guy is not a good way for them to endear themselves to fans, old or new. Gotta call you out on this, having read the whole thing, and followed the links. If you don't read it but repeat it without applying critical thinking to it, you are just adding to the noise. The noise is what obfuscates anying Zac Smith may or may not have actually done. You are being the echo chamber.
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Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Jun 27, 2017 13:51:25 GMT -8
fredrix I'm more of a rambler than a ranter, and while I do have a problem with Smith, I wouldn't boycott the IP because of him. I would need to boycott D&D 5E as well. My issue was more the complete and utter denial by White Wolf and just the pure crap that was Vampire Prelude. Not only was it written by a shit person, it was poor writing that Smith brought a personal vendetta into. One of the more atrocious and offensive characters in it bears a striking resemblance to Avery Adler (Monsterhearts) whom he has had long time issues with. Their direction and recent projects just don't hold an interest for me. ayslyn I'm guessing you're referring to my post about their handling of Zak Smith? If so there's plenty of evidence available for SMith's harassment campaigns against others and White Wolf/Paradoxs denial of it was a public statement. If you need direct links: Jeff Healy compiled large amounts of evidence of the harassmentWhite Wolf's Statement
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Post by The Northman on Jun 27, 2017 13:59:10 GMT -8
This is the game that led one of its clanbooks with fiction piece about a skull-fucking snuff film, and featured a vagina with teeth on the back cover of another.
Everything I've read so far in the playtest is a reassertion of original core themes and business as usual from WW.
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Post by RudeAlert on Jun 27, 2017 14:24:29 GMT -8
The best post I've found, after slogging though too much incomprehensible shit it this one. It seems to list everything in order. The author is I think on Zac's "side", but It's the evidence against him too and call him out on a number of things. Don't read it for the commentary however, read it for the chronology: falsemachine.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/a-timeline-of-zak-wars.htmlhhmm, there is more there than I've seen before... Of course, this is a post specifically in defense of Zak S. so one would expect it to paint him in a more positive light... I'm certainly not going do a full 180 in a few mere moments, but I'll keep this in mind. I definitely try to avoid getting sucked into RPGnet's ultra-PC, perpetual victim, pseudo-white knight fantasy world, so I'll have to keep this in mind. Though it has been a long time, I do remember reading about him in other places, I just can't remember where because it's been a while. I'm not quite sure what to make of all this at the moment, I think this will take more time. On the other hand I really don't feel like doing tons of research on this, but for the moment I'll soften my stance on Zak S. at least until anything more... I dunno, definitive? comes up.
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Post by RudeAlert on Jun 27, 2017 14:32:18 GMT -8
The best thing I can give you without devoting far more time to this than I feel like wasting is a link to an Onyx Path forum thread about this topic: forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/general/off-topic/1050412-white-wolf-hires-zak-smith-im-outI haven't read the whole thing but there are several links in there, which I also haven't all checked. I don't actually know if the thread does a good job of illustrating the situation, like I said I haven't bothered to read much of it since I really don't feel like wasting too much time on this particular topic. Hopefully it can at least provide a broad outline. The long and short of it is that there are quite a few people out there who really don't like Zak S. and for what I would say are pretty good reasons, and nuWhite Wolf coming along and spitting in everyone's face by hiring him and then acting like he's a totally swell guy is not a good way for them to endear themselves to fans, old or new. Gotta call you out on this, having read the whole thing, and followed the links. If you don't read it but repeat it without applying critical thinking to it, you are just adding to the noise. The noise is what obfuscates anying Zac Smith may or may not have actually done. You are being the echo chamber. Yeah, that link was not my first choice, I just couldn't find the one I was looking for so when I found that one and saw that it seemed to cover some of the same basics I figured it would have to do. I really wasn't going to spend the time it takes to read an entire 50-page thread on a topic that I frankly didn't really feel like spending too much more time on then I already had in the past.
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