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Post by malifer on May 25, 2012 2:25:20 GMT -8
It's 0e with a few tweaks. It's fairly hack n' slash with no skills.
Advantage/Disadvantage is not what I expected and doesn't seem that great.
More than a handful of conditions which I think really slows things down and adds to the GM workload. Wish they would have gone the Star War Saga Edition condition track route.
I feel like the "interactions" section in the DM guidelines will make for an amusing discussion on the podcast.
It seems fine. There isn't enough here for me to truly judge. Am I supposed to play test rolling a d20. Ok 20. I win D&D.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2012 7:13:51 GMT -8
I'm liking it; but I prefer B/X/1e...
I think the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic is an interesting way of replacing Combat Advantage/Flanking/etc... and should extend out well into skill checks.
I haven't read SW Saga so I can't comment on that, but I really like these conditions. They feel more refined and "realistic" (I'm not looking for GURPS level simulationish, but I like real world logical) without being gamist..
I haven't read thru the GM guidelines or adventure yet. I'm looking forward to them, but I have stuff that needs to get done first.
The healing stuff seems pretty interesting, I like it much better than 4e healing surges! But honestly it's really sort of the same thing with a prerequisite thrown on top...
The magic is an interesting take on old and new... Some at-wills, some prepareds (with usage slots) and rituals (that don't consume usage slots) with components and required gestures and incantations... My 4e group will probably think I am being a big D!CK for playing this as written!! I LOVE it! To me, this really opens the door to role playing as PCs have to go and buy the base requirements for certain spells and potentially run out in the middle of a adventure or worse, a battle!!
I didn't think I was going to like the Backgrounds and Themes, but the ones they are showing make sense for the Skills they grant and there is good potential there to create character backstory - so they do more than JUST grant skills. The benefits and descriptions are subtle enough that they could apply to a young adult in a medieval society without raising too many eyebrows; 4e PCs seem more like grown adults who stepped away from their careers like a mid-life crisis. The one PC that confuses me is the Dwarf Cleric with a Knightly Background and Healer Theme... I can see the PC backstory being along the lines of a crusader type of warrior that took the role of apathacary for his compatriots... But that feels like a sgtretch.
There are a couple of things that I have been hand-waiving in my 4e game that the playtest has defined and I wouldn't hand-wave - like retrieving arrows and sling stones, encombrance, etc...
I'm liking the weapon and damage types!!! I wish they had written chainmaille as "resist slashing" and plate as "invulnerable to slashing, resist bludgeoning", but that would force them to expand the various weapons to multiple types of damage - a long sword would have to do both slashing and blugeoning (which they do), maces F'up people in chain!!!!
I'm VERY excited to get a chance to start playing with these rules!!
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Post by Stu Venable on May 25, 2012 7:46:27 GMT -8
I think the combat advantage/disadvantage mechanic will be more elegant and simpler to determine than the several rules it replaces -- or at least it seems like would play that way.
I can also see how it might be a headache to count up all the various things that will impose advantage/disadvantage in combat. "okay, you are on higher ground, but it's dark lighting and rough terrain, but you have the cloak of awesomesauce and the ring of bitchenness, but your opponents are flanking you, etc."
I like that they've struck a balance between "the 5 minute work day" or mages in 1E/0E and the "we're all Jedi" power system from 4E.
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Post by malifer on May 25, 2012 9:35:34 GMT -8
I'm liking it; but I prefer B/X/1e... I like it. I prefer this style more than 4e, but it's really doesn't seem different enough yet for me to buy another set of books. (The only D&D edition I haven't played is 3rd.) I think the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic is an interesting way of replacing Combat Advantage/Flanking/etc... and should extend out well into skill checks. I haven't read SW Saga so I can't comment on that, but I really like these conditions. They feel more refined and "realistic" (I'm not looking for GURPS level simulationish, but I like real world logical) without being gamist.. I think it's easy and that's good, but no matter had bad you were beaten or how hard it was to fight Orcus at level 2 if you rolled a natural 20 you were awesome for a brief moment. If you roll 2 d20s one comes up 20 and the other is 1 and you have to take the lowest that will be a sad faced player. I haven't read thru the GM guidelines or adventure yet. I'm looking forward to them, but I have stuff that needs to get done first. The healing stuff seems pretty interesting, I like it much better than 4e healing surges! But honestly it's really sort of the same thing with a prerequisite thrown on top... The magic is an interesting take on old and new... Some at-wills, some prepareds (with usage slots) and rituals (that don't consume usage slots) with components and required gestures and incantations... My 4e group will probably think I am being a big D!CK for playing this as written!! I LOVE it! To me, this really opens the door to role playing as PCs have to go and buy the base requirements for certain spells and potentially run out in the middle of a adventure or worse, a battle!! Only thing I really haven't liked is in the DM guidelines page 8 I think under "interactions". It's says something along the lines of some players do not want to roleplay or act in a funny voice, they roleplay with dice and you should let them play that way. So don't let your players read that before you have them dance to cast a spell.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2012 17:04:43 GMT -8
I'm liking it; but I prefer B/X/1e... Only thing I really haven't liked is in the DM guidelines page 8 I think under "interactions". It's says something along the lines of some players do not want to roleplay or act in a funny voice, they roleplay with dice and you should let them play that way. So don't let your players read that before you have them dance to cast a spell. I must have missed that or blocked it out of my memory!!! If I run this with my 4e group I won't have to worry about them reading any rules.... That just isn't going to happen. I'm going to enforce gestures and crappy rhyming!!! It's in the rules... :-D
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Post by greatwyrm on May 26, 2012 5:35:02 GMT -8
How is "do what works for your group" shaky advice?
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Post by rickno7 on May 26, 2012 5:39:38 GMT -8
I like the Advantage/Disadvantage thing in this version. At first I thought "its just a situational wild die" and I was all ready to start harping on WOTC about stealing ideas instead of making innovations.. but then I realized that it can work against you too. In the past editions you would probably just add or subtract a modifier, this new way is more exciting and entertaining IMO.
WOTC also gets a +2 modifier to convincing me because they have Vancian magic. Love it or hate it, Vancian magic is Dungeons and Dragons IMO. Its as core to the system identity as AC, character class, and ability scores.
Themes and Backgrounds, as I said before, reminds me a lot of the additional rules that 2E put in with supplements. Supplements that were quite popular with my players, and I loved it because it encouraged role playing through mechanics. I know a lot of people might poop on doing that, but they'll turn around and praise other systems that do it in other ways. Traveller's background generation affects the mechanics, for example. Anything that can get the roll players to role play some is good. When your combat munchkin one day says "well I come from Farmer stock apparently, I don't think I'd like this pompous ass holding his riches above our heads like carrots" it'll bring a smile to a DM.
So much depends on the skill system though and we haven't seen any of it yet.
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Post by greatwyrm on May 26, 2012 8:59:37 GMT -8
Overall, I like what I see. 2e or 3e were my favorites and this kind of reads like a blend of the two, to me at least.
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Post by ayslyn on May 26, 2012 9:06:02 GMT -8
There is a little 4e splashed in as well. I like that cantrips now have a bit of bite. I disliked the cast two spells and pull out your dagger style. I like that casters have an option to continue casting.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2012 12:36:48 GMT -8
I was really NOT liking the auto Hit they turned Magic Missile into with Essentials!!! It became exactly what one would fear/expect... The player not bothering to pay attention at the table becaue he knew he could just tag a monster for 6 points of damage without having to roll or even put the iPhone down.
I like that they have described MM as a forceful impact rather than a flame arrow, to me that makes a bit more sense for an at-will attack spell that has been practiced so often for so long it's practically second nature.
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Post by clockworkmonk on May 26, 2012 16:33:08 GMT -8
Anything that can get the roll players to role play some is good. When your combat munchkin one day says "well I come from Farmer stock apparently, I don't think I'd like this pompous ass holding his riches above our heads like carrots" it'll bring a smile to a DM. So much depends on the skill system though and we haven't seen any of it yet. This.Anytime someone at my table who typically doesn't inhabit their character beyond being a walking sheet of numbers starts to actually role play, I smile. The lack of a skills system can be both liberating and terrifying, depending on the players. The Castles & Crusades system, which is a retro clone of pre-WOTC D&D with d20 mechanics, has no "skills" system per se, though there are "abilities" that each class is able to do (making rogues and bards have some of the longer character sheets than others). The way that system handles it, though, is that players have primary and non-primary attributes. Primary attributes would roll against a DC 12 (+/- modifiers) and non-primary attributes roll against a DC 18. For D&D Next, it looks like it doesn't matter if your wizard has an 18 strength and a 12 intelligence, if they roll for the same thing, say, climbing the face of a cliff. You'd expect a high-STR ranger to be more used to climbing while a wizard that spent most of his days indoors and ... apparently making use of the Wizarding Tower's Indoor Gym would have issues with the same situation. But apparently, he practiced Ye Olde Rock Climbing for D&D Next, too? *shrug* I've got no issue with the system yet, except for the fact that at its core, it's doing a lot of the same things the retro clone systems are doing, except with WOTC stamped on it instead. Hopefully I'll playtest it soon to form a more solid opinion. There are two things that I do appreciate, though: 1. Advantage/Disadvantage - I'm ripping those mechanics straight out for a homebrew system that I'm working on now. It makes things a lot more expedient. 2. Making "finesse" a weapon category rather than a feat, so you can use your dexterousness to wield a rapier like you should in the first place rather than whacking people over the head with it.
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Post by ayslyn on May 26, 2012 23:20:05 GMT -8
I'm liking Advantage/Disadvantage very much. I'm liking the idea of Hit Dice, but I think it's specific implementation isn't great. I really would like two things. Chuck the requirements of a healing kit, and give more Hit Dice at first level.
My brother prefers a Surge style system, where you get a static number back, and I can't say that I really disagree. It sucks when you go to heal, and roll ones.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2012 8:24:08 GMT -8
Is it me or is the system a bit too random, since many rolls are usually 1d20+Stat vs DC? The D20 is a cruel mistress and, for instance, a beastly dude with 18 con is only 20% better at making fort... err constitution saves than the average Joe with 10 con. The whole "get rid of the stupid (cat-fodder to world destroyer) power creep" is great, but by removing so many modifiers you are left only with the wimsy d20 and a small bonus.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2012 13:56:16 GMT -8
I like the Healing Kit concept. I might not like it in practice, that reamins to be seen...
But it makes sense to me:
You go out for a hike with no first aid kit and get hurt, you are likely to be in more pain, slowed from limping, going to face a longer healing time and worse scars when you finally DO get to a doctor than if you had some anticeptic, burn cream, bandages, etc...
The rock climbing example said that the DM should be open the player using Strength or Dexterity bonuses... My experience in a rock climbing gym has been that you can muscle your way thru it (and get tired faster) or you can ballet your way thru it (and get further with less energy spent) - the reality is that most stuff like this take a balance of multiple attributes...
When I was climbing on a regular basis a several years ago I had the oppertunity to talk with a Recon Marine and his experience was that they had to scale a 30 foot wall with standard field packs by moon light with no ropes = pure strength to get it done and go kill the enemy... But Chris Sharma and most professional level climbers use very little strength on the wall so they have it to burn on overhangs and I've seen him at the top of walls that were 95% 1/4 inch wide ledges or less.
Use the Skills or make your own judgement calls as DM...
Rule No. 1 is "Have FUN!"
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Post by rickno7 on May 27, 2012 16:55:49 GMT -8
The lack of a skills system can be both liberating and terrifying, depending on the players. Unless I've read all the pre-release stuff wrong, this packet doesn't have a skill system only because they have not decided and designed it enough to release. They will have a skill system... unless something changed very recently.
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