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Post by chronovore on Feb 13, 2018 3:57:11 GMT -8
Well, to be fair, there IS a reasonable level of “Don’t Judge It Until You’ve Tried It”. Sure, yes, absolutely arguing via reductio ad absurdium or whichever fallacy implies we're going to an inadvisable extreme. I'm also fond of telling my son, "What would happen if we all left our dirty socks in the living room? How would that be?" — that's also a fallacy of sorts, but I'm growing ever closer to leaving a pile of dirty socks on his pillow to make my point.
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Post by EricaOdd on Feb 14, 2018 15:36:16 GMT -8
But, where would all the Tapestries come from if it weren't for women in RPG's? (No, no, put down the crossbow, I'm kidding, I'm kidding!) LOL Just kidding back at 'ya. But the reality is really frustrating. Imagine growing up being told that you're not allowed -- or simply just can't -- do something because GIRL. Then you find fantasy RPG. Hey! Cool! ... THEEEEENnnnnn you get told your character is not allowed -- or simply just can't -- do something because GIRL. How's that fantasy wish fulfillment again? Look at my GIF again for my reaction to that nonsense. The laws of physics and reality have been rewritten or simply ignored to allow magic and monsters and mayhem on a world that isn't even Earth... but for some male gamers "historical accuracy" demands that women be relegated to so-called traditional roles. I want to play Dungeons and Dragons, not Barmaids and Bustiers. Even if my character is a barmaid in a bustier who kicks the asses of dragons in dungeons.
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Post by Stu Venable on Feb 14, 2018 20:36:02 GMT -8
When we started the Vast Dominions game, we had a discussion about gender roles in the early 20th century. Even though the setting is fantastical, it also takes place in a particular time in history and draws from that history.
In the end, we glossed over the gender inequity of the era.
In the book I'm writing for it, I'm including some historic elements, like the women's suffrage movement. It's an optional thing, but for those interested in exploring that movement, the option is there.
Who knows? Someone may decide to run a game where the party are agents working for a suffrage organization, and that could be bad-ass!
Personally, I think gender (and other) disparities in how they're treated by society can (and should) be waived by default. But there can be some interesting games exploring these issues as well.
But in the latter case, it should be a central theme, not just, "you're a girl, you can't play a knight." Even in SOIF, which is a horribly sexist setting, there's Brienne of Tarth. And her story is fantastic (I've only see the HBO series, so I can't speak to the books). If the writers had shied away from the intrinsic sexism of the setting, her story wouldn't have been told, which would be a shame.
So I can understand both sides in this -- keeping this injustice or waiving it, as long as it's not just a way for people to act shitty toward women gamers.
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Post by EricaOdd on Feb 15, 2018 2:38:05 GMT -8
I agree with every word, Stu.
What I'm describing is just another form of gatekeeping, IMO.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 3:00:41 GMT -8
I agree with every word, Stu. What I'm describing is just another form of gatekeeping, IMO. The reason those early games tried to make rules about gender was so that the world was cohesive. Just like dwarves need epic beards or they risk losing what marks them as a dwarf, so do the genders. That isn't to say you can't subvert that trope and create a Briene of Tarth, but that she is only so exceptional because she is a lone exception. If everyone is special, no one is. Now, I think those early games bungled it because they lacked the rules to allow an exception. Gender and racial (or special) roles are meant to be exceeded and reversed in some cases. We just need to pay mind that those cases are rare or we risk changing our setting. Not all (or even most) settings need to cleave to reality, so change away if you want. Just be aware of what you are doing. A world full of supermen would just call each other "men". To be exceptional is to stand out, and nothing helps you stand out like a set of guidelines being bucked.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Feb 15, 2018 5:50:20 GMT -8
Brienne of Tarth is a great example. Because in (most) games our characters are exceptional. So you can have a horribly sexist world, if that’s the one you want to explore BUT there should be no “historical” restrictions on what a PLAYER wants to do with their character. (And no, that doesn’t mean you can play a Ninja in my Old West game, it means that a female character, or a chinaman, can be just as good a cowboy as a white male.)
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Post by Kainguru on Feb 15, 2018 6:31:07 GMT -8
A more fundamental question is: ‘has this (gatekeeping with gender) ever actually happened to you or anyone you know’. Not anecdotals, or ‘could happen’, or ‘one expects it to happen’, but actually happened? . Because, if it hasn’t, we may just be chasing jabberwocky’s and getting upset about something that ‘could but never did’; not dissimilar to anti bomb protests during the Cold War - they were right but, in the long run, that conflict just didn’t pan out that way and went in an entirely different direction (vis-a/-vis weaponised economic superiority). TL;DR - was it ever actually an issue? Aaron PS: ie: FATAL exists, but I don’t know anyone who ever played it. Except the one example of a podcast host (from another podcast) who ran it at a convention (without all the sexual fetish content) to see if it worked simply as a game mechanics system (it didn’t, he reported that even the basic mechanics were unplayable).
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Post by EricaOdd on Feb 15, 2018 7:26:38 GMT -8
A few times, yes. At conventions, because if my local groups pulled this stuff I wouldn't be gaming with them.
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Post by Kainguru on Feb 15, 2018 10:23:03 GMT -8
A few times, yes. At conventions, because if my local groups pulled this stuff I wouldn't be gaming with them. Seriously?, at a convention? then I refer you to rule number one: 'don't play with arseholes'. Sounds like they were arseholes, actually they were arseholes ... they were probably arseholes in a whole load of other ways as well so I don't think you missed anything by giving them a pass at the first hurdle ... Was this recent or 'back in the day'? Aaron
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Post by Stu Venable on Feb 15, 2018 10:44:44 GMT -8
I know a few women who have told me horror stories about behavior at convention games in particular, and in recent times -- a few years ago -- not back in the 90s.
Often, one wouldn't necessarily know you're playing with an asshole until well into the game.
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Post by EricaOdd on Feb 15, 2018 11:49:10 GMT -8
My most recent was at a con just a few years ago. Ironically enough, since Stu mentioned it earlier, in an ASOIF game.
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Post by Kainguru on Feb 15, 2018 12:32:31 GMT -8
It sounds like less a problem with older gaming systems and more like another problem altogether. Given the likes of DnD had dropped stat related gender differences in 2e (and it was released in '89), I'd suspect hobby gate keeping by the great unwashed wanting to 'keep it for themselves'. This was a very real thing, and still is - like that stupid 'Nerd PSA' from a few years ago ... like everyone on this forum I have similar hobby interests like those guys (the nerd PSA), but I was never one of those guys and they'd want me to drop my hobby because I'm not one of them (for me, at uni, we played ADnDnDnD - advanced dungeons and dragons and drink and drugs - as well has having a 'normal' social life). If they couldn't play the gender card then they would have found something else with which to gatekeep their hobby ... which annoys the shit outta me because more often than not (when encountering these types) I'd been into 'their' hobby considerably longer than them purely by dint of being that much older Another 'gatekeeping' tactic - "we only allow serious/committed RPGers at our table" Aaron
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mrcj
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 173
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Post by mrcj on Feb 16, 2018 15:11:21 GMT -8
I tend to prefer more traditional settings. I can see how if I'm not sensitive, that can lead to some frustration for female players.
But I usually GM GURPS which tends to be flexible for that kind of thing, even in a real european historical or, even worse, Gor-type setting, I figure everyone who chooses to be an "adventurer" usually has some kind of unusual background, so it is fun fleshing out why a woman would choose this dangerous lifestyle as well as role playing opportunities when they run up against hard-line patriarchal NPCs.
At the end of the day there are some bell curve biological differences between men and women, but these games are not played on a bell curve and there is no reason to hold anyone back from having a good time.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2018 4:23:38 GMT -8
I tend to prefer more traditional settings. I can see how if I'm not sensitive, that can lead to some frustration for female players. But I usually GM GURPS which tends to be flexible for that kind of thing, even in a real european historical or, even worse, Gor-type setting, I figure everyone who chooses to be an "adventurer" usually has some kind of unusual background, so it is fun fleshing out why a woman would choose this dangerous lifestyle as well as role playing opportunities when they run up against hard-line patriarchal NPCs. At the end of the day there are some bell curve biological differences between men and women, but these games are not played on a bell curve and there is no reason to hold anyone back from having a good time. *Pushes up non-existent glasses.* Actually, GURPS is played on a bell curve due to its 3d6 die system. *Mic drops and walks out of the thread*
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mrcj
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 173
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Post by mrcj on Feb 20, 2018 12:22:31 GMT -8
"Welcome to GURPS, where all the women are strong, the men are good looking and the children are above average...or not." Garrison Keilor
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