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Post by lowkeyoh on Mar 26, 2018 0:40:13 GMT -8
I'm not conflating the two, nor am I suggestion that anyone is advocating a return to the 'good ol' glory days of rape jokes' It was merely a data point on the progression of 'edgy to less edgy' the podcast has progressed though. An extreme one and one that I think no one misses. But the point was that people have been discussing Twitch as the catalyst of change from raunchy adult Happy Jacks to clean family friendly Happy Jacks.
That isn't a point I think is particularly valid. The podcast's trajectory was heading towards a cleaner show just in an effort to not belittle people. That may not be the only reason for the change, that isn't my assertion, but the show did change it's tone before Twitch. If you go back to season 17 I don't think you'll find the show to be that much different in tone or content to season 21. Both, however, are very different from season 7. I don't think we can lay the blame at the feet of Twitch.
I think we can lay the blame squarely where it's always been laid. On Stork.
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Post by Kainguru on Mar 26, 2018 1:45:34 GMT -8
I have to disagree, I think by 'cleaner' you are observing 'more polished'. The show became 'more polished over time' mainly because the mistakes of the past were learnt from - 'gang rape joke' = faux pas = 'we ain't gonna do that shit again'. The other learning experiences that made the show 'more polished' can be found firmly entrenched in 'dead horse topics' - that place 'we-dare-not-look' (until Storks generational genetic breeding program comes to fruition and we have the kwisatz haderjack) - no more 'great crunch debates' (by debate I mean argument, by argument I mean I'm sure they drew knives or guns, but it was pre-YouTube). This 'polishing' was good. the show improved, listenership grew. It's hard to ignore the the salient fact that Twitch has correlated with a decline in listenership. Maybe it's the Twitch filter, maybe not - but the change in the tone of the show was palpable. It wasn't the previous organic change with growth, it was a sharp bootstraps and straight jacket change. HJ suddenly became kid friendly ... sorry, but fuck that shit. The kids have plenty of vcasts tailored to them and HJ is suddenly trying to compete in a different niche with greater competition and it's losing - because of that competition. People drive Mustangs on weekend track days because it's the weekend and it's a track with no speed limits and it's not the VW Polo they drive to and from work the rest of the week; but more people own Polo's than Mustangs. Aaron
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Post by lowkeyoh on Mar 26, 2018 2:34:39 GMT -8
This is the third time you've brought up the fact that the podcast has become kid friendly without defining how or substantiating the fact that the blame lies on the move to twitch.
If the move to twitch was what caused such a marked difference in tone and content as to be the clear culprit then it should be easy to articulate the difference in the before and after. Is it a lack of foul language? An attempt to stay on topic? What is the difference? If I played HJRPG S16E10 and S21E8 back to back, in what way would I be shocked and appalled to find different?
Everyone's using nebulous terms that don't mean anything. I understand people think the show has changed, and it's hard to argue that it hasn't, but to say that there is a clear line of "happy jacks was good" and then "happy jacks isn't good" seems absurd. And to further blame that line on a change of format seems equally absurd.
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Post by Kainguru on Mar 26, 2018 3:26:54 GMT -8
Well I didn't actually bring it up. Other people did and, in reading their observations, I made an observation. In fact it wasn't until other posters identified the issue that I thought it was an issue. Rather they identified a factor that I hadn't taken into account and, in reflecting, agreed that they had made a valid point. I said 'Safe=Bland'. Others coined 'kid friendly': what is 'kid friendly'? it's not the local pub where adults go meet and greet with an age restriction on the door, it's the 'family restaurant' (or whatever one's Country calls them) that serves alcohol for the grown ups with a bar ... it's safe. That's not a bad thing but it is also bland: people go but it's not like calling in at your local to unwind after hard week at work It's also the other observation cited many times throughout this thread - the 'and beer' is missing Also not 'less good or bad' just different - conflating being 'different' with being 'good' or 'bad' is restricting the your understanding of the issue. An issue that is real because the question was asked and here we are pages later. Just like the change in format has been cited time and time again - mainly the change from being an auditory experience to being a more visual production. Absolutely, given the number or respondents who have echoed the same concern, it's not the same listening experience during a commute since becoming a vcast. Vcasts are great but 'they-do-demand-more-commitment' because they have to be watched Aaron
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Mar 26, 2018 5:35:25 GMT -8
I agree. Anyone who called the show “kid friendly” now is wrong. There is still enough cussin’ to ensure that . But there is a difference, and to my ears it does coincide with streaming on twitch, despite what Kimi says. Rather than kid friendly, I’d call it “professional” which seems an odd way to critique a show. But like I said in my first post (which I had promised myself iwould also be my last in this thread) and others have echoed, its now somehow less like sitting round a pub table with mates, which has ALWAYS been the appeal for me. I acknowledge what Kimi said about, basically, just growing up/older. And rape jokes were never funny. But I miss stuff like JiB not letting anyone get a word in edgewise, the Hipster “hate”, and yes the drinkyness. Anyhow. I’m still listening so my thoughts are not the problem, i’ll get out of the way.
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Post by Kainguru on Mar 26, 2018 7:20:19 GMT -8
TBH honest I only adopted the 'kid friendly' moniker because it was being used and I disliked the alternate being proffered - which was 'raunchy'. Simply because I felt that that term was even less apt as a description Really, it's basically less 'and beer'; which is even more nebulous but the most appropriate Aaron
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Post by natebob on Mar 26, 2018 8:16:36 GMT -8
Just the APs. It's like hearing an inside joke that only people watching live get. It's not that funny for us podcast listeners.
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Post by RudeAlert on Mar 26, 2018 10:30:21 GMT -8
I think asking people to define in precise terms the nature of the change that has occurred is not entirely realistic. We are largely talking about a change in "feel" or "tone" that is not easy to fully quantify, even to the ones bringing it up (such as myself). And I'm also not talking about the lack of rape jokes, or autistic/Asperger jokes either, those can stay gone and I'm sure few will miss them. Also asking us to contrast and compare two episodes from two random seasons is kinda trying to create a false dichotomy. Depending on which episodes you picked, you might end up with a season 1 episode that makes a season 21 episode look like the raunchiest filth ever because the whole tone has never been a consistently linear thing. There's always been ups and downs, and lefts and rights, and all sorts of variation. The stuff we are bemoaning now is less of a stark "black to white" change and more of a gradual shift (exacerbated by Twitch) from a sort of averagely darker grey to an averagely lighter grey. As Kainguru said, the best (and worst) way to describe this nebulous change in tone is the lack of "and beer"-ness in the podcast. I actually find it kind of amazing how that simple change so aptly stands in for the overall change in tone. Now I totally agree that the change didn't all occur because of Twitch, but it did push things further away from the "and beer" of older seasons in a fairly sudden jolt. If someone wants a specific example, the only one I can think of that is easily singled-out and identified is the notable drop in the use of swearing that has occurred since the move to Twitch. Now, on its own that wouldn't necessarily be an issue, but it does fit along with the general drop in "and beer"-ness in the podcast. And by the way, I completely understand that podcasts and their hosts can change over time, as they grow older or possibly just get bored of old tropes and so on. I just don't want Happy Jacks to end up losing what drew me (and presumably a lot of us) to it in the first place. Even now, there's only one other gaming podcast that I listen to sort of regularly, but nothing close to as assiduously as I do Happy Jacks, and the difference between that other podcast and HJ is that the other one is all clean and polished, and edited and avoids foul language and is ultimately kid-friendly. Well I'm not a goddamn kid anyone, if I want kid-friendly stuff there's a metric ass-ton of that shit all over. When it comes to something that is clearly more aimed at adults without just being a bunch of dysfunctional basement dwellers shouting obscenities in an attempt to sound more "adult" however, HJ is the only place I've found so far and I don't want to have to go out there and find another one to replace one that I already found years ago and have been following since.
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Post by Probie Tim on Mar 26, 2018 14:34:09 GMT -8
Is that something that has bothered people for the last 5+ years or is it just the APs that are annoying with it? I'm sure my feedback isn't all that important considering I'm usually on the other side of the mic, and I haven't even been there much lately. But I'll say that - for my part - hearing you, or Stu, or Gina, or whoever, tossing out quips from the chat room during a regular episode can be funny and inclusive. But during an AP? I found it annoying when I was playing, and it's what made me stop listening to the few APs I started (I'm not a big AP listener, though, so that's not a comment on the show). Because when the RP is flying and people are having a good time, "hold up, hold up, listener X just posted in the chat that we did that wrong... we should have moved our clothes to the lower peg, then rolled stat+skill and divided by pi" really kind-of knocks me as a player and me as a listener out of the game. You know, for whatever that's worth.
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bobcatt
Apprentice Douchebag
Patron
An infinite number of monkeys can't be wrong...
Posts: 81
Preferred Game Systems: AD&D 1e, 2e, 5e, Top Secret/S.I., Classic Traveller
Currently Playing: nothing at all :-(
Currently Running: completely stalled doing 5e via Roll20
Favorite Species of Monkey: Barrel of
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Post by bobcatt on Mar 26, 2018 14:37:52 GMT -8
Do you listen less often? No, I consume the episodes as fast as you put them out. It's how I maintain sanity during my daily commute. Have listened from Season 12 ep 01 up to last week. Not sure I will be able to manage the first 11 seasons, though.
Did you unsubscribe? (you’re probably not reading this if you did, but who knows). If so, why? No. I've actually subscribed with another device to try and reduce the amount of electronic crap I carry everywhere.
Do you listen to other shows in lieu of HJRP? Not in lieu of, but in addition to: i.e. Fear the Boot, Gamerstable, Ken & Robin Talk About Stuff, Save for Half, Dead Games Society, Hobbs & Friends of the OSR, SavageCast, Savage GM... Also listening to your GM Briefing content. I stopped listening to Role Playing Public Radio, but can't remember why...
What is it you’re getting there that you’re not getting here? Different opinions, yet more ideas & approaches, nostalgia, game reviews, interviews with industry contributors... That said, I prefer the overall mix on HJRP so it remains my priority.
note: I have not been able to make it through any APs; they just don't do it for me. The farthest I got was a few of the heavily edited "Dice for Brains" FFG Star Wars AP episodes.
Sound clarity and tone are overall very high quality, although there are occasional level matching issues between hosts where it forces me to crank the radio volume in the car to hear one person, then nearly blow an eardrum when the next one talks.
Chris in Canada
>>EDIT - I can watch about 10-15 minutes of the Twitch stream at 8PM PST on Fridays, then have to bail to commute home. I can pick up the feed at home on Twitch 45-60 minutes later, if you're still going (which you usually are). For the missing bits in the middle, I download the audio via subscription for a later trip back to the office.
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pjs37
Supporter
Posts: 43
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Post by pjs37 on Mar 26, 2018 16:59:18 GMT -8
So I am going to take a crack at this. I started listening back in 2012 (or 2011? who knows it was a long time ago)
Do you listen less often? Yes-The primary reason is lack of time really. Almost all my podcast listening is done on my commute so I have about a handful of podcasts I listen to regularly. HappyJacks is usually one of them but some other ones I been binging on to catch up. It's not just HappyJacks suffering I also stopped listening to Audible books I used to do in the afternoon.
Another part of it is the fact that honestly in the many years I have been listening to a lot of it is stuff I heard before? I get not everyone is going to go through the backlog and listen again but for example how many time can one discuss a difficult player and have the answer be "Have an adult conversation with them" I mean it is certainly a valid question and it is certainly a valid response but it's not very different? So if I miss an episode am I really going to be missing something critical?
The other thing I learned going through the backlog is 1)The interviews were great even if I didn't care about a system you guys haven't done one in a while 2) There were the horror stories which is great and created many HJ memes (Cheeseburgers anyone?) that doesn't seem to happen very much anymore.
Another thing is maybe AP hurt you in a weird sort of way? Like before AP's you could relate "Well this weekend we did such and such and this happened and that sort of relates to this email we are discussing" Now you need to 1) be careful about spoiling stuff too soon because AP backlogs can be a bear to get through at times and you don't want to upset people 2) a good chunk of your audience likely already listened to it and like listening to the same story about the same thing for the umpteenth time people just get bored of it. So in a weird way, AP's (Which btw the audience demanded loudly for a long while) also works against you now because the games you used to be able to bring out to relate experiences to emails now are either stale or spoiler loaded.
I think too much host rotation can hurt things for sure as well as other people mentioned though I don't find it bothersome I always enjoy the fresh view on things and you always seem to try and balance old to new guests fairly well.
Another thing I feel like you used to do more than you don't do as much now is to discuss RPG news in any way I don't think you need to be like a new podcast like most things are but I think discussing something major in the RPG field and discussing can certainly breathe some fresh interesting things into the show. User content is great and getting your email read on the show is amazing but again kinda feels like a lot are just repetitive? I don't know it doesn't need to be like all the news or the whole show or even every show but I feel like it could help. Or maybe like takes of new systems or settings people tried or have used in the past. Like instead of mentioning something just in passing in an email explore it in more detail why is it so good why does a host like it what are the other hosts' thoughts on that.
For the rest of the question No I haven't unsubscribed and No I haven't moved on to a new RPG podcast.
I hope this helps in some way. You guys have been on for almost 10 years and I am hoping it will be on for another 10. The audio is great and I love the twitch stream even though I basically never am awake when you go live.
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mrmanowar
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 74
Preferred Game Systems: Ones that I own.
Currently Playing: AS&SoH, AD&D various editions and Manowar CD's
Currently Running: D&D 5E, AS&SoH (Started!)
Favorite Species of Monkey: The ones that rhyme with donkey
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Post by mrmanowar on Mar 26, 2018 18:48:01 GMT -8
We still drink, but we tend to drink less than we used to because we are fucking older and have to actually do stuff the next day. I don't bounce back like I did a few years ago and I know the same is true for the other hosts. Now that many of us are parents/teachers/etc who work with/know/have children on the spectrum which makes autistic jokes a lot less funny. Honestly, life experience has been changing how I interact on the show for a while now. Well, I thought I'd preface my comments with this quote from Kimi. It fits. Now that I have that quote out of the way, here is my bit worthless as it is... I still and most likely always will subscribe and listen to the main podcast (Happy Jacks). It is a very enjoyable thing for me and I love to support the show and listen to the hosts. I don't have a problem with the revolving door/new hosts bit as most of the hosts are great for me to listen to. I am also happy to have Tappy back. I would love to see a Stu/Stork/Kimi/Tappy or other old (only in the relative sense of podcast age, not actual age please don't hit me Kimi) format once to see if the old magic was still there. I don't think that host lineup has been present in more than 8 years or so, correct me if I'm wrong. Regarding the AP's well, I've never listened to one. Here in Wisconsin despite having a plethora of gamers and where we have to really schedule things and split groups because of that 10 or more player thing, not ONE of them has asked for PBtA games or Savage Worlds or other "modern setting" things. If anything more and more newbies here love D&D5E which for this show loves to blast and denigrate D&D in any of it's editions. That might (and I'm hesitant to emphasize) might be a turn off for your show. I don't look at numbers and I don't know. Also, for me, I played WoD stuff all throughout the 1990's so the Vampire, etc. stuff doesn't interest me as I spent years of my life playing once a week in college on that material when it was coming out. For now I'd rather see some newer product if I was to listen to an AP. The other thing about AP's in general for me is this: I only listen to AP's when I want to learn a system I've backed by Kickstarter or some other source where most players are leery about joining the game I'm going run because they "can't find that product in the FLGS". As to the raunch, etc. missing "and beer" from the podcast start... well... it's your podcast! Do what you want to do! Dismiss my and other comments as irrelevant? That's your prerogative! I do believe Stu that you said you would do this podcast as long as it was fun and met your criteria as far as a fun show. Do people and their tastes change? Sure. But if it's still fun for you, then do it! I'll still download and listen. I'm not the most active on the forums and I don't do the social media bit. Just have fun and keep the original spirit of you all getting together to talk gaming and be spontaneous! Keep HJ fun so everyone laughs including you hosts OK?
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mysterycycle
Apprentice Douchebag
Living in a van down by the river.
Posts: 50
Preferred Game Systems: Dragon Age, GURPS, Fate, D&D retroclones
Currently Playing: Ryuutama
Currently Running: Marvel Super Heroes (FASERIP) NYC 1940
Favorite Species of Monkey: Chimpanzee
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Post by mysterycycle on Mar 27, 2018 10:02:21 GMT -8
Still listening, but since this Administration began I listen to a lot more political podcasts than I used to. I went through a stretch of time where I was only listening to political stuff until my depression kicked in hard and I forced myself to listen to my old RPG favorites again. So iTunes auto-unsubscribed me and I still have a backlog of shows I haven’t listened to yet.
I also catch you guys on Twitch sometimes so I don’t feel the need to listen to that episode on iTunes.
HJ, FtB and Ken & Robin Talk About Stuff are still my primary RPG podcast subscriptions. I don’t have a replacement for HJ because Stu, Kimi, Stork, Gina and Tim feel like old friends and when they talk about Ren Faire/Inland Empire stuff I feel like I’m with my tribe. I also love a good gaming horror story.
As far as APs go, I don’t listen to any of them. I get my AP fix from One Shot Podcast, Geek & Sundry and tons of other folks on Twitch, but while I love the idea of APs, in practice I can’t concentrate on them for more than about 15 minutes before losing interest or realizing I’ve been daydreaming about something else and don’t have any idea what they’re talking about any more. So I love that you guys do them and it’s nice to have them on as a sort of background noise when I catch them on Twitch, but they’re not something I devote my listening time to.
I like that you have a more diverse cast - it makes me more aware of how painfully homogeneous my home group is (one of our guys is a Brit, does that count?), but I like hearing from different perspectives. That said, I’ll be more likely to listen if I see that Stu, Kimi, Stork, Gina and/or Tim are on the mics, because again, they feel like old friends.
Anyway, I’m still subscribed (unless iTunes is screwing with me); I just have a lot more on my plate these days and only so many listening hours in the day.
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Post by RudeAlert on Mar 27, 2018 11:09:02 GMT -8
As to the raunch, etc. missing "and beer" from the podcast start... well... it's your podcast! Do what you want to do! Dismiss my and other comments as irrelevant? That's your prerogative! I do believe Stu that you said you would do this podcast as long as it was fun and met your criteria as far as a fun show. Do people and their tastes change? Sure. But if it's still fun for you, then do it! I'll still download and listen. In principle I fully agree with this sentiment. However, Stu did start a thread specifically to ask for feedback in order to find out why the listenership has waned recently. This would seem to imply that he cares at least a little bit about how many people listen to the show, and why they might stop doing so. In this case I feel that telling someone, "Just do what you like and have fun" is not necessarily the most helpful. If Stu and crew just want to do the podcast in whatever way they feel, for their own entertainment, without a care for how large the audience is, that's totally cool with me. Like you said, it's their show, and it's not as if they're raking in the big bucks with this, so they should at least be able to have fun. But, as I stated above, if Stu went out of his way to start a thread specifically to inquire into possible reasons for why the listenership has been dropping lately, it would seem that that is indeed a factor he cares about. Sometimes being nice and supportive is not the way to help, helpful criticism can help far more than helpful friendliness, especially when feedback is asked for to address a perceived problem. Note: I'm slightly bothered that this forum's Autocorrect doesn't recognize the word "listenership," it's a perfectly good word dammit! Oh, and also "Autocorrect" doesn't seem to pass muster either, how ironic.
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Post by vyrrk on Mar 27, 2018 11:30:51 GMT -8
Since this thread also seems to be a good place to interact and talk about things with the hosts...
Is there a reason the AP feed is so far behind youtube? I want to stay up to date on the APs I follow so I find myself watching youtube as I drive. If I get in a accident I'm going to hold HJ responsible! (Not really)
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