|
Post by RudeAlert on Apr 24, 2018 12:49:02 GMT -8
I've recently started to feel like watching Critical Role might have actually adversely affected my enjoyment of playing RPGs. I know they're all professional performers and one should not expect every game to have that caliber of role-playing but still, it really is like watching too much porn. As entertaining as it may be to watch, it can kind of mess with your standards and expectations, and ultimately get in the way of your own enjoyment when you're the one engaging in the activity in question. So what you are saying is that they are too good? I would argue that there is no such thing as too good, only that being exposed to that caliber of gaming can affect people's perceptions after a while. In much the same way that the over-consumption of porn can affect people's perceptions, and enjoyment, of their own sex-lives due to unrealistic comparisons, or the way that exaggeratedly good-looking (and generally Photoshopped) models in the media can make people feel self-conscious about their appearance. Now obviously, being really good at what you do is not the same as engaging in unrealistic (and frequently even unenjoyable) sex acts for the camera (and yes, I've tried a fair few of them so I do know), or being artificially enhanced with imaging software, but the end consequences for the viewer can be just the same. (1) Where did I "shit all over Critical Role" in my post? Seriously, show me in my post where I actually said anything bad about them. Don't put words in my mouth! (2) BULL! SHIT! Are you being serious right now?! I know you've literally been living under a rock in the middle of a fucking desert completely out of touch with reality for umpteen years now but it's on you to get back in touch when you come back. APs were around, and in many cases very popular, YEARS before Critical Role came around, not to this degree I admit, but CR did NOT create APs in any way, shape or form. (3) Again, back to point 1. Show me in my post where I said anything bad about Critical Role or expressed any dislike for them in any way? I watch those mother-fuckers every damn week, does it sound like I don't like them? (4) Thanks for the advice... but I've already done these things, and watched/listened to a lot of APs, and watched Youtube videos (before RPG podcasts were even really a thing), and have listened to more RPG podcasts then I can count (with Happy Jacks being the only one that I've actually stuck to), and probably read too many RPG books for my own good. The only missing link in my experience is loads of actual gaming due to a persistent lack of gaming groups. Problem is, not everyone has access to players that are as dedicated to the hobby. I'm currently saddled with a group of "casuals," or dreaded ROLLplayers. They're not interested in spending years immersing themselves in the RPG hobby and the overall craft of RPGs, as I have. And while I plan to start running a game of my own in the near future, largely to counteract the utter boredom that I'm experiencing in our current "by the book" (literally) D&D game, I have little hope of things being that much better in the game I'll be running. You can bet your ass I'll be doing my damnedest to amp up the ROLEplaying as much as I fucking can but it's likely that it'll be a lengthy uphill battle for me to elicit any kind of gratifying return on my investment. In the mean time I'll be able to enjoy Critical Role, knowing full well that I will very likely never have a group with 10% the level of dedication, investment, or skill as these guys. (Hence the comparison to porn by the way. It's not just about the crazy sexual acrobatics, part of it is also the fact that most of us will never have partners half as hot as the ones you'll see in porn. Just like most of us will never have groups half as dedicated or awesome as the Critical Role crew.) (6) See the big misconception about your whole interpretation of my post rests on this: I know full well how much work it takes to get good at RPGs, or anything else for that matter. I never stated, or insinuated, that being good at RPGs was just supposed to be something that happens and that the CR crew were just supernaturally gifted in a way that is simply inaccessible to us lowly mortals. I know about all this so you're not telling me anything new here. The problem with watching CR (or porn) is that, though I know I've done my homework and research (not as much with porn, but that's not the topic at hand), I don't have access to anyone else who has. So while I would never claim to be an AMMMMMAZING!!! roleplayer, I know that I have more knowledge and experience and willingness to invest into it than any gamer I have access to. So to return to the porn analogy: I'm like a dude who's spent decades honing his acrobatic sexual prowess, only to find himself constantly stuck with inexperienced virgins. Meanwhile I have all this porn that I can watch (CR in this case) that shows me other people doing all the awesome stuff that I'd like to be able to to, but can't because I can't find anyone willing to commit as much to the activity as I have been over all those years. (*) Or you're constantly stuck with partners that aren't that great at it. There's only so much one can do to "force" others to be better, or even just more invested in the hobby. As you have said yourself "THIS IS LITERALLY WHAT OUR PODCAST IS ABOUT." How many emails have been sent in by people bemoaning their lack of a good group? How many times have people asked for advice on how to elicit more investment and dedication from their players? This is nothing new Tappy. You may have been out of touch for years but this has been a perennial issue, most likely for as long as their have been RPGs actually. And yes, Critical Role IS great, Matt is practically a fucking GMing GOD for Christ's sake, and the players are AMMMMMAZING performers and invested as fuck! The whole point of my post was to mention that having such paragons of gaming to show you just how good it can be, also serves to highlight how crappy one's own gaming experiences can sometimes be. Sure, they're inspiring, but there's a dark side to people doing things at such a caliber, it's like rubbing right into your face the kinds of mind-blowingly awesome gaming experiences that most, if not all, of us would love to have, but most of us never will.
|
|
|
Post by RudeAlert on Apr 24, 2018 13:02:22 GMT -8
That's the rub, CR is fine and dandy. That isn't what we are talking about, it's the closed minded elitism of "if it isn't gaming like Critical Role then it's crap". Hell, I listen to the pods of the show and find it entertaining. What I don't find entertaining is being told I'm "not doing it right because Matt Mercer is the DM King of the right and true way of DMing". You know, fan players with expectations of Normal Joe DMs who lack the said years of work to get to Matt or CR standing of excellence and thus judged. Funny enough, I feel like I kinda fell into that mindset too for a while until I realized that it was probably making me a bit asshat-y so I had to make a point to rein that in.
|
|
|
Post by RudeAlert on Apr 24, 2018 14:09:22 GMT -8
Hey! Is that a dead horse over there?? Imma go beat the crap outtta that thing!!!! So, tappy , I've thought a bit more about my last reply, and I feel there's an even simpler and more succinct way to make my point. Thanks to watching Critical Role since it began: I have been to the best 5 Star restaurants in the world, and now all other food tastes kinda bland. I have seen the best movies, and now all others look like mindless Michael Bay-esque explosionfests. I have read the best books, and now everything else reads like Twilight and 50 Shades. I have heard the best music, and now everything else sounds like Justin Bieber and other overly-commercial crap. I have had sex with the hottest and most experienced sexual partners, and now all others look and feel like puritanical virgins. You get what I'm saying? It's the Critic problem, like movie critics, food critics, music critics, and all others who have experienced such a broad range of samples of their chosen medium. There comes a point where you've sampled the best and everything else feels like "the rest." It's easy to assume that when professional critics shit all over something, that they're just being elitist asses, and fair enough, many of them are, but it's not only that. In the process of consuming all this "stuff" (whatever their specialty is) they invariably end up experiencing some of the best that the world has to offer in their given field of expertise. As a result, everything else ends up looking worse in comparison. THAT is the point I was making in my initial post. I have seen "the best" and now everything else feels like "the rest."
|
|
|
Post by greatwyrm on Apr 24, 2018 15:01:13 GMT -8
I have to be honest that I don't watch Critical Role. It has nothing to do with the quality, just the time I have available. It seems a lot better representation of what we do than stuff I see in most TV and movies.
Overall, I have to see CR and the stuff Penny Arcade did as a net positive. I've said before that one of the biggest problems we had was that getting into gaming is like joining a secret society. Unless you were asked (or basically stumble across it) you didn't get exposure to rpgs. That's different now. The people CR and PA were exposing to tabletop games are *our* people -- they just didn't know it. They grew up in a world where video games with heavy story involvement were everywhere and just had to be nudged in the right direction.
Now, they get to see what a game generally looks like. Maybe they try it and like it. Maybe they try it and end up doing it their way instead. Why get upset about any of that?
|
|
|
Post by akavidar on Apr 24, 2018 16:33:37 GMT -8
I guess I'm the odd man out here. This is the first time I've even heard of Critical Role.
|
|
|
Post by RudeAlert on Apr 24, 2018 16:52:19 GMT -8
I have to be honest that I don't watch Critical Role. It has nothing to do with the quality, just the time I have available. It seems a lot better representation of what we do than stuff I see in most TV and movies. Overall, I have to see CR and the stuff Penny Arcade did as a net positive. I've said before that one of the biggest problems we had was that getting into gaming is like joining a secret society. Unless you were asked (or basically stumble across it) you didn't get exposure to rpgs. That's different now. The people CR and PA were exposing to tabletop games are *our* people -- they just didn't know it. They grew up in a world where video games with heavy story involvement were everywhere and just had to be nudged in the right direction. Now, they get to see what a game generally looks like. Maybe they try it and like it. Maybe they try it and end up doing it their way instead. Why get upset about any of that? I actually agree with everything you just wrote there and, for the record, I'm not the least bit upset about the existence or overall positive impact of Critical Role. All I was saying is that it does set an unrealistic standard, and if one falls into the trap of buying into it, it can have a deleterious effect on one's enjoyment of one's own gaming. I, for a while, fell into that trap and became like the annoying assholes that OFTHEHILLPEOPLE mentioned in his posts and it did have a negative impact on my enjoyment. And I have to admit that, for the time being at least, the high bar set by Critical Role does continue to have a negative (though milder) impact on my enjoyment. Chalk it up to basic jealousy if you want, but they're displaying a level of gaming quality that I know I will never get to experience in my life, and that is kind of an unpleasant reminder. But! They are damn entertaining to watch, so I just keep going back every week. Whether that will ultimately prove to be a good or bad thing for me as a gamer in the long run, only time will tell.
|
|
tappy
Journeyman Douchebag
Host
Posts: 192
Preferred Game Systems: Apoc World, Monsterhearts, L5r, Wod
Favorite Species of Monkey: Space Monkey
|
Post by tappy on Apr 24, 2018 17:19:48 GMT -8
Hey! Is that a dead horse over there?? Imma go beat the crap outtta that thing!!!! So, tappy , I've thought a bit more about my last reply, and I feel there's an even simpler and more succinct way to make my point. Thanks to watching Critical Role since it began: I have been to the best 5 Star restaurants in the world, and now all other food tastes kinda bland. I have seen the best movies, and now all others look like mindless Michael Bay-esque explosionfests. I have read the best books, and now everything else reads like Twilight and 50 Shades. I have heard the best music, and now everything else sounds like Justin Bieber and other overly-commercial crap. I have had sex with the hottest and most experienced sexual partners, and now all others look and feel like puritanical virgins. You get what I'm saying? It's the Critic problem, like movie critics, food critics, music critics, and all others who have experienced such a broad range of samples of their chosen medium. There comes a point where you've sampled the best and everything else feels like "the rest." It's easy to assume that when professional critics shit all over something, that they're just being elitist asses, and fair enough, many of them are, but it's not only that. In the process of consuming all this "stuff" (whatever their specialty is) they invariably end up experiencing some of the best that the world has to offer in their given field of expertise. As a result, everything else ends up looking worse in comparison. THAT is the point I was making in my initial post. I have seen "the best" and now everything else feels like "the rest." First, let me apologize for the aggroness of my first post, I am very defensive of people I consider my friends. It wasn't an intent to call you out, but more of a "WTF" I'm not going to go over the billion points because I think your second post is much more cromulent to we are talking about than the over-the0topness of my post. I'm into food. Like a lot. I went to culinary school and have been off and on cooking for about 20 years now. I have literally been to some of the best restaurants in the world. And a good hamburger still tastes good. Mediocre and bad food still tastes mediocre and bad. Also, there really is no such thing as "the best x" in the world, it is all up for debate, but the top restaurants are the top restaurants, no matter the order they are in. The only thing I can really say to your point is that when you find out what good actually is, then what is mediocre and you thought was good tastes mediocre and you know it. One you know what sushi is supposed to taste like, and I don't mean the best sushi in the world here, but just what it actually is supposed to taste like, then you can identify mediocre or bad sushi for what it is. However, once you have had the best sushi in the world, you can still identify and enjoy good sushi just as much. I have eaten at the best steakhouse in Shinjuku, but I can still enjoy a teppanyaki place in the U.S. I have eaten at the best steakhouse in LA, but I can still enjoy a good steak in any other restaurant as well. Learning what good is and that you can enjoy it is ostensibly a good thing, though I imagine it sucks if you have only ever had McDonalds in your life, and you have a real burger... then only have mcdolalds after the burger joint burns down the next day. Find your fun and go for it. One thing I have found is that different groups have different kinds of fun and they are all valid. I GM very differently from Matt, and my group is very different, but we still have fun playing the game. If you want your group to be critical role, you will be disappointed. it literally isn't the same group and no matter how good the GM, you can't get the same effect.
|
|
|
Post by greatwyrm on Apr 24, 2018 17:21:17 GMT -8
Well, some people just can't enjoy a thing on its own merits (in general -- not a shot at RudeAlert or anyone else). You really can't make a program or write a book to compensate for that any more than you can make a game that stops jerk GMs from being jerks.
|
|
tappy
Journeyman Douchebag
Host
Posts: 192
Preferred Game Systems: Apoc World, Monsterhearts, L5r, Wod
Favorite Species of Monkey: Space Monkey
|
HJRP 21-16
Apr 24, 2018 17:52:59 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by tappy on Apr 24, 2018 17:52:59 GMT -8
Let me make sure I don't gloss over something here. Your takedown of my post is correct. Let it not he said that when I am wrong I do not own up to it. I know a lot about role-playing games, I do not know a lot about actual plays.
I think I still fundamentally disagree with your premise, but the vast majority, apparently, of what I wrote is incorrect. Thank you for taking the time to break it down and I appreciate how you referenced my post in each one.
|
|
|
Post by RudeAlert on Apr 24, 2018 18:00:25 GMT -8
Also, there really is no such thing as "the best x" in the world [snip] Oh, I totally agree that there's no such thing as "the best" of anything in an objective sense, but for my examples, "the best" that I've ever encountered in terms of overall AP quality is definitely Critical Role. And that really shouldn't come as too much of a surprise when you take their backgrounds into account, they are all literally professional actors/performers. I would simply argue that they are closest to a sort of objective "best" among what is available right now. See that's the whole point, I've known for a long time that there are different gaming styles and that not every group is as "good" as another (quotation marks to denote subjectivity). The thing about Critical Role for me, is that it's been kind of a rude awakening regarding just how wide the gulf could actually be. Combined with the fact that most of my gaming experiences have been of the "McDonald's" variety, that made that awakening all the ruder, kinda like being woken up with a jackboot to the balls. Absolutely; and to be clear I actually wouldn't even really be all that interested in the Critical Role style of gaming, it's far too emotional and involved for my tastes. I feel like I'd need a day off afterwards to recover and that's just not my idea of fun. But the level of performance is just so damn awesome! To go back to the porn analogy (because, hey Porn!), I know I'll very likely never get to nail a ludicrously hot babe the likes of which you can see in porn, and that's really not the end of the world, but you know... it still kinda sucks a little bit. I mean, I'd like to. I don't NEED that in my life sure... but it'd still be pretty fucking sweet... even just once. You know, just for the hell of it. And that's basically kinda how I feel about Critical Role. I absolutely love it, and yet it also fills me with a little twinge of shame and self-loathing, and a strange need to go wash my hands for some reason.
|
|
|
Post by akavidar on Apr 24, 2018 19:23:24 GMT -8
So, I decided to check out this Critical Role thing on YouTube, and chose Campaign 2 episode 1. www.youtube.com/watch?v=byva0hOj8CUI am 10 minutes in and they have been doing ads for their sponsors and ads for merchandise, but no gaming content so far. Even though I am bored to tears, I will soldier on.
|
|
|
Post by RudeAlert on Apr 24, 2018 19:47:30 GMT -8
So, I decided to check out this Critical Role thing on YouTube, and chose Campaign 2 episode 1. www.youtube.com/watch?v=byva0hOj8CUI am 10 minutes in and they have been doing ads for their sponsors and ads for merchandise, but no gaming content so far. Even though I am bored to tears, I will soldier on. If you scroll down the comments you should be able to find a post that lists various time-stamps on each episode. It's actually pretty impressive how detailed they are, and how quickly they get posted. Also, I will say that the first few episodes of season 2 are a bit more rambly and less impressive than their usual level. New campaign and new characters and all that, you know how it is.
|
|
nevvur
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 13
Currently Running: D&D 5e
|
Post by nevvur on Apr 24, 2018 20:41:46 GMT -8
The problem isn't Critical Role, it's the players who form expectations based on it.
|
|
|
Post by mook on Apr 24, 2018 22:00:26 GMT -8
So, I decided to check out this Critical Role thing on YouTube, and chose Campaign 2 episode 1. I am 10 minutes in and they have been doing ads for their sponsors and ads for merchandise, but no gaming content so far. Even though I am bored to tears, I will soldier on. Ha! I did the exact same, episode and all, but almost immediately closed it when I saw what looked like GM + 7 players. Clearly not the AP for me, though I'm glad they seem to be successful.
|
|
|
Post by Kimi on Apr 24, 2018 23:03:54 GMT -8
I've never been able to get into CR, despite knowing a few of the cast members. (Fun fact, I made Matt do burpees a few times as his gym coach!) I love my friends at G&S and support their work, but I haven't been able to stay interested in their streamed APs. Continuing with the porn analogy (because why would we NOT?) - people have different tastes. Some people enjoy super high production quality porn with lighting, body makeup, professional performers, scripts, etc. Some people prefer the amateur videos with a more "real" feel to them shot in someones house. Some prefer all girl videos, some prefer all guy videos, etc etc. You can see where this is going. Don't kink shame with porn or actual plays. Let people like what they like as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult. Also, thank you all for slumming it and liking our stuff.
|
|