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Post by jazzisblues on Feb 4, 2013 17:31:07 GMT -8
I'm not hostile to the idea of a heal bot or a rogue bot etc, but it is not generally my go to answer to the problem. I tend to adjust the game to fit, but then I don't usually run published material.
JiB
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Post by henryhankovitch on Feb 4, 2013 17:44:37 GMT -8
Mainly I think that in a lot of instances, the solution to the issue is often more contrived and silly than just providing an NPC to handle the problem. Particularly when the problem is a core part of the game's mechanics (healing in D&D, repairing ships in sci-fi, etc), rather than a more niche specialization.
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Post by jazzisblues on Feb 4, 2013 18:00:50 GMT -8
Mainly I think that in a lot of instances, the solution to the issue is often more contrived and silly than just providing an NPC to handle the problem. Particularly when the problem is a core part of the game's mechanics (healing in D&D, repairing ships in sci-fi, etc), rather than a more niche specialization. Very good point. JiB
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scubasteve
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Post by scubasteve on Feb 4, 2013 21:20:03 GMT -8
"If you want to differentiate you player characters in Savage Worlds, you play something else." ;D ;D I love you Hyvemynd. ;D
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Post by jazzisblues on Feb 4, 2013 23:05:15 GMT -8
"If you want to differentiate you player characters in Savage Worlds, you play something else." ;D ;D I love you Hyvemynd. ;D Don't make me come over there and beat you with a stack of Hero books. JiB
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otherdoc
Supporter
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Post by otherdoc on Feb 5, 2013 3:29:55 GMT -8
"If you want to differentiate you player characters in Savage Worlds, you play something else." ;D ;D I love you Hyvemynd. ;D This leads me to wonder... have you guys done a show topic yet about whether or not a character's stats ARE the character?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2013 3:47:32 GMT -8
I think if you NEED a healbot in the party, just treat him like any other NPC, with motivations and character. But, more importantly DONT CALL HIM A HEALBOT, it will ruin immersion. I don't think you need a "healbot" in DnD 4e, in 3e perhaps, in 4e the game can actually be more fun without a leader since the fights will not be 2 hours long healfests. I have played in a campaign with 3 defenders and 1 controller (fighter, swordmage, paladin, wizard) and GMed in another without a leader as well, both went fine, the GM just has to keep this in mind.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Feb 5, 2013 4:02:12 GMT -8
"If you want to differentiate you player characters in Savage Worlds, you play something else." ;D ;D I love you Hyvemynd. ;D This leads me to wonder... have you guys done a show topic yet about whether or not a character's stats ARE the character? I just wrote about that very idea, that the stats serve to delineate the mechanic risk for the players and rather not determine or interpret the PCs to/for players; or suggest any player agency limitation. There are plenty of salient and vivid examples of people overcoming their challenges in real life, which is the concept behind a player skill game. Munchkins cannot grok such a game. A PC does not have to be ganked, either, if the stat rolls are treated as randomizers rather than rails.
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
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Post by D.T. Pints on Feb 5, 2013 9:28:30 GMT -8
So on the other thread about the topic of online game immersion I said this: It is funny to me to realize that after several years of using Fantasy Grounds via computers we have mainly focused on fantasy settings and 1920's Call of Cthulhu. I would imagine that games like Paranoia (where the disembodied voice of the computer is GOD) and Shadowrun would be a shit ton of fun.
Then lo and behold! Last nights Fantasy Grounds game opened with not my life long friends smiling image on G+ but this: And a disembodied, electronic creepy slightly female voice saying "Attention Loyal Citizen Please Report to Alpha Complex Sector 323323xyx for your Summary Execution! Have a Happy Day!" And it just further blew my mind from there. Never once did the GM let his normal voice be heard, or his real image on G+ be seeen. He just used different voice modulators for the robots, Vulture Squadron Commandos and of course that damn creepy, kill happy computer. If you haven't played Paranoia DO IT! If you haven't played Paranoia while having to talk to an insane computer in game, while talking to your computer in the RW, I can't recommend it enough! Immersion ? I got so creeped out I had to throw a sheet over the damn thing at the end of the night... Cheers.
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Post by Kainguru on Feb 5, 2013 10:21:42 GMT -8
Okay, this is the last post from me in this thread I want to support Jib's comment near the end of the show about avoiding too much specificity in establishing connections between characters. I think using a fairly open description makes it easier to "plug and play" connections and other background elements when it's dramatically appropriate, rather than being constrained by details like location, etc. Consider the following hypothetical background bits: The second one sounds real juicy, doesn't it? It's gonna take some work to integrate, though. The players need a good reason to be in Westport and to be in the company of Barton the Tinker—are you going to go to all that work just to tie up a minor background bit? I think the former, less detailed version, would be easier to integrate on the fly: Too narrativist or metagamey for some? Perhaps. Still, it's my experience that these synergistic, emergent developments of character resulting from loosely described background can be at least as dramatic and rewarding as those resulting from detailed background description and requisite orchestration by the GM. God yeah, you are absolutely right!! in my current campaign there is BIG reveal for one character and his background (next session or the one after, hopefully). But it is actually based on an innocent character NPC interaction 2 sessions ago - well not so innocent on several levels. When the player expressed a desire to explore his family background more (at a later date) I got thinking . . . I was watching Excalibur (cause it was on the Telly in HD and I like it) when the BIG reveal occurred to me. No real tweaking was actually needed just an unexpected fleshing out of the background of said NPC to tie it all together (and an Evil desire to do a bit of a RP mind fuck . . . the player is no munchkin, far from it, but he usually focuses more on what he can 'do' rather than who he 'is' and this is definitely a 'who you are' reveal rather than a 'what you can do') Loads of subplots should spin off from the BIG reveal . . . a whole new avenue of adventuring possibilities have been created ready for insertion when needed. All thanks to synergy Jonmacnally notes above Aaron
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Post by Kainguru on Feb 5, 2013 10:38:04 GMT -8
I think the hosts were way too hostile to the idea of support NPCs in general--i.e., the healbot. Yes, DMPCs are always bad, always. But there is just as much space for NPCs to be mercs, hirelings, temporary support, manual labor, etc, as there is for NPCs to be merchants, informants, or busty barmaids. This is especially apparent if you look beyond the dungeon-crawl genre. For instance, look at sci-fi games like Rogue Trader or Star Trek. (Assuming there's a Star Trek RPG worth playing; I wouldn't know.) In either of those instances, the PCs are going to be crewmen--command officers, most likely--on a ship with thousands of people. Tens of thousands, in the case of Rogue Trader. And while many of these NPCs will be faceless deck-swabbers and brass-polishers, it's simply unthinkable that the PCs are the only personnel around who could patch a wound, fix an engine, or drive the damn ship. It really isn't any different in Shadowrun, or D&D, or most other game settings. There are always people out there with the skills you need; and if a certain skill-set would be life-or-death to the PCs, it's a bit contrived to make them play without it. They'll hire that wandering healer, that second-story man, or that local guide. That being said, it remains important to keep the NPCs from intruding on PC territory as much as possible. So here are some suggestions: Most important, of course, is to keep the NPCs from driving the plot. They can deliver information, but they shouldn't deliver solutions. It should be "hey, I happen to read goblin runes, here's what that sign says," not "oh, I happen to know the secret entrance to the goblin lair." Their personal background should really be kept minimal, and they should never, ever take a proactive role in the plot. Unless they're secretly the villains or something. They should always be in the background, able to lend a hand, but not given a starring role. In general, whenever I give the party access to an NPC, I always make it less competent or powerful than a PC would be in the same role. Lower levels, or a less effective class/build, or just someone with some significant character disadvantages. Instead of a powerful holy warrior, the hireling healer might be a lowly priest with no combat training, or a vow of pacifism. He might even be a coward who runs from danger rather than take extreme risks on the party's behalf. There's a reason these people aren't leading adventurer parties of their own, after all. And of course, a support NPC should usually have a cost to them. They'll want a share of the treasure, they'll object to being used as a gear mule (unless that's what they were hired for), they may have family or employers that they need to keep in contact with. And of course they'll always have a strong sense of self-interest--they're not going to take point. Both mechanically and story-wise, you want to keep the party from seeing support NPCs as "free power." As an example: in Rogue Trader, every ship must have at least one Navigator. This is ripped straight out of the Dune universe: they're purpose-bred individuals with psychic powers who are needed to travel faster than light. One of the PCs can be the Navigator, but if nobody wants to play it, you really can't have a ship without an NPC in the role. Because the Navigator's abilities have a strong mechanical role in the gameplay--deciding how long it takes to get places, how many bad things happen to you, and so on--I actually built a Navigator NPC rather than just handling Warp travel by plot fiat. He had class levels, but he didn't level up--and I also didn't give him Fate Points, which are very important for re-rolling failed checks. Additionally, I also made him an extremely disgusting character who didn't like to come out of his lavish quarters; so the party neither wanted, nor was encouraged to ask him to go down to the planet adventuring with them. He was a colorful character--and the PCs cursed his name every time the ship went off-course--but he always remained a background character. Yeah I kinda gotta go along with this . . . that's why there have been hirelings and henchmen since the start. There are pages in the AD&D 1e DMG devoted to just these NPC's, how to handle them, costs, loyaly etc . . . they've always had a role, even if only to serve the underlying game mechanic. Bit like real life . . . you don't rely on friends for every service do you? if we did swaths of builders, electricians, mechanics, doctors, nurses, PA's, secretaries etc etc etc etc would be surplus to requirements or. at the very least, broke. But a 'healbot' . . . hmmm . . . ah . . . no, really no. Certainly not in the implementation that the term 'healbot' evokes. Maybe it's just the term, maybe I misunderstand what is meant by that . . . if 'healbot' = 'hireling' fine I'm just not comfortable with 'youse young 'uns vernacular is all'. Aaron
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Post by rickno7 on Feb 5, 2013 14:08:36 GMT -8
I re-listen to the podcasts on Tuesdays, after usually listening to the show live on Friday night. Sometimes I stop during the live cast so I have some "new" stuff to listen to on Tuesday. I had no idea they got to my email. It is really cool that it got the responses that it got. I want to mention every bottle of Jack Daniels has "Old No. 7" on the label. I can't use Rick#7 in most forums or emails. It goes back to Everquest actually. I got drunk one night while playing it, and I gave myself the last name Oldnumberseven. I laughed as I typed it because I thought "no way they would let me have this". Some of the examples of compromising your GM Ethics include: You, as a GM, do not let players use multiple characters. When someone can not make a game session, you generally ignore they are there. What do you do when the group bands together and decides that the group just can not go on without that character this session and they all ask if they could play the character or have it as an NPC just for this game session. As a GM you get tired of people throwing their dice all over the place. Maybe you have a hard rule: dice that are not on the table never count. A character has a very low chance of achieving a near impossible heroic act, and the dice roll is a perfect 20! Only, its on the floor. The players are already giving high fives and talking about how awesome it is that the player pulled it off. Do you let the roll stand? or do you go against all the players and keep hard fast to your rule? Similar to the one above. A player must roll a 1D10. By accident the player picks up the similar looking 1D8, rolls and it is a success. You point out that it is the wrong dice. The players band together, and say the first roll should stick because he did not give himself an advantage with the roll, it is actually a handicap to roll a D8 instead of D10. Do you hold fast? Do you point out the roll is inconsequential in the scheme of things? Either way could set a precedent in the player's mind at the table.
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scubasteve
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Post by scubasteve on Feb 5, 2013 14:34:37 GMT -8
"If you want to differentiate you player characters in Savage Worlds, you play something else." ;D ;D I love you Hyvemynd. ;D Don't make me come over there and beat you with a stack of Hero books. JiB Now, now, there's no reason to get angry at the truth.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Feb 5, 2013 14:52:26 GMT -8
Some of the examples of compromising your GM Ethics include: You, as a GM, do not let players use multiple characters. When someone can not make a game session, you generally ignore they are there. What do you do when the group bands together and decides that the group just can not go on without that character this session and they all ask if they could play the character or have it as an NPC just for this game session. The answer is no, unless there is some standing agreement between players in which case player agency is assumed and there is someone besides me to take the blame for bad dice rolls. If the PC/NPC is the logical target for attack, that is how it plays. But I also play with player skill. The player who was missing at my weekend game usually questions me, in character, quite well. This leads to player discussion as I only give data and players assume the role of synthesizing information. Had I allowed her PC to be played as an NPC at that table she would have died in the TPK. Or I would have overstepped my boundary to provide information by being faithful to the missing player, in which case I am narrating a story. As a GM you get tired of people throwing their dice all over the place. Maybe you have a hard rule: dice that are not on the table never count. A character has a very low chance of achieving a near impossible heroic act, and the dice roll is a perfect 20! Only, its on the floor. The players are already giving high fives and talking about how awesome it is that the player pulled it off. Do you let the roll stand? or do you go against all the players and keep hard fast to your rule? What plays on the table stays on the table. This is an explicit rule in my game. Munchkins roll those spotty hard to read dice anyways. Similar to the one above. A player must roll a 1D10. By accident the player picks up the similar looking 1D8, rolls and it is a success. You point out that it is the wrong dice. The players band together, and say the first roll should stick because he did not give himself an advantage with the roll, it is actually a handicap to roll a D8 instead of D10. Do you hold fast? Do you point out the roll is inconsequential in the scheme of things? Either way could set a precedent in the player's mind at the table. D10 is different shape than a D8. It's a learning experience. Roll again.
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Post by henryhankovitch on Feb 5, 2013 15:25:14 GMT -8
This leads me to wonder... have you guys done a show topic yet about whether or not a character's stats ARE the character? Are you a combination of your SAT scores and your max bench-press weight?
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