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Post by malifer on Jun 16, 2013 14:52:52 GMT -8
Wow no Season 10 episode 2 thread up. Well. Okay here we go.
I have to say this was the first time I kept waiting for Stork to say "well it depends on the system."
Twice. I waited and twice I was shunned.
Email the 1st
The Gm knows GURPS but is running a successful 15 session D&D 4e game but some players keep changing characters.
Now I can't quite remember if the writer said if the players were new to roleplaying, but when I started playing 4e the group I played with was all MMO players and I had never liked MMOs. I was the only one who had played Tabletop Rpgs.
I racked my brain on how to make a character that felt any different than any other character I could make.
Every PC in that system is a wizard and they all feel the same.
To be functional it has to be "optimized" so making a character just a matter of picking a different feat that ultimately does the same thing.
You're still going to max out the Class stat. No Fighter is going to make his highest stat Intelligence because the Fighter powers do not use that stat. In the end no matter which PC you make you're rolling +4 or +5 vs some changing DC. Your only choice comes down which of the boxes you want your character shoe horned into.
So system matters and I think that could be the problem.
Email the 2nd
The writer wants to run a one-shot game but doesn't want to railroad the players.
Pick a system that gives narrative control to the players.
FATE, Dungeonworld, Monster of the Week, etc
There are bound to be plenty more, but it's nigh impossible to railroad when the players can take the story in a different direction by using the rules of the game.
Better yet I think these games are stronger as short games than long term ones.
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HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
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Post by HyveMynd on Jun 16, 2013 23:23:28 GMT -8
Re: changing characters mid game. In recent memory I've changed characters twice mid-game. The first time was during our Savage Worlds fantasy game (several years ago, now). After the second session it was painfully evident that the character I'd made just wasn't fitting into the campaign. I'd made a face character with very few combat skills and no real motivation to go adventuring. Turns out the GM was running a globe-trotting "save the world" adventure, and my PC simply didn't fit. So I did a major overhaul, and effectively started a new character despite keeping the same name. That was a good lesson in why the group should all sit down and discuss what kind of game this will be, and what kinds of characters everyone will be playing. The other time I changed characters was during our Monsterhearts game. But that was due to stuff that happened to my character in game. She felt that there was no alternative available to her except to pack up, leave, ans skip town. So she did, and I started a new character. Lady Blackbird is an awesome, rules-light game by John Harper. Also, it's free. Plus, there are a lot of hacks for the setting, including a Star Wars one. I can assure everyone, that I am not Craig from Osaka, because as was pointed out HE PLAYS SAVAGE WORLDS! In fact, I plan to track down this Craig character and behead him with my katana, because, like the Highlander, there can be only one. So beware if you ever find yourself in the Minato-ku area of Osaka, Craig. I do think that grabbing the Two Sides: One Epic PDF to see how one-shots are structured is a great idea. Pick a system that gives narrative control to the players. FATE, Dungeonworld, Monster of the Week, etc I (of course) considered suggesting the Apocalypse World-based games, but didn't. I didn't want to get my dirty hippie stunk on anyone. But since someone else brought them up first, I'll go ahead. Learning to run these can be tricky, as there is a lot of material that is presented differently than other RPGs. They actually aren't all that different really, but it takes a while to understand that. For example, a big part of the initial disconnect is that the GM doesn't roll dice. That throws a lot of people off. "Wait. You mean as the GM I can just DO things to the player characters WITHOUT having to roll for it?" Yep, you most certainly can. The rules provide guidelines about when and how you should make these GM Moves. The big secret of these games is that you're already making GM Moves in the games you currently play, you just didn't know it.
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merryprankster
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 243
Favorite Species of Monkey: Howler
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Post by merryprankster on Jun 17, 2013 7:57:07 GMT -8
I am curious about these happy hippie games you speak of.
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on Jun 17, 2013 8:41:36 GMT -8
I am curious about these happy hippie games you speak of. And somewhere in Osaka another special "contract" is made ready...Get out your blood tipped quill 'Prankster.... I really enjoyed the discussion on trying to differentiate between shy, new and just quiet players. As was mentioned "email is your friend". I cannot beat this rotten, entrails spilled all over the ground, ungulate(horse) enough to say again...a wiki like the one Stu set up for his L5R game, or the Proboards Sir Guido set up for his L5R game or the Obsidian Portal I set up for my Pathfinder game: www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/the-awakening-of-the-desert-king/adventure-logThese wiki's provide a fantastic opportunity for PC's to develop their characters without constantly trying to hog the limelight or be overwhelmed by everyone looking at them while they not only to talk in a funny voice but bring the GRAVITAS. I have time and again groaned a bit during a game when either a shy player tries to develop their character in game; or Cthulhu forbid a player might want to get a bit serious with the story in a silly voice...and the astounding douchebags I call my lovely friends start side yuckin it up with dick jokes. Laughter at the table is all well and good; my last Pathfinder game had a subconscious soundtrack of Yakety Sax throughout the whole thing...(and I was going for more of a horror flavor). There were moments when it got really quiet round the table as the paladin fought his private mind war with the devil seeking to possess him and I could feel the tension building and then someone would make a goofy remark...tension relieved. I understand it. But a nice email sidebar can allow GM and player to pursue intrigue, romance, horror, mental degradation without fear of interruption from the court jesters. I now see aspects of characters coming out during game that I know no one is aware of except the player and GM...it makes me all warm and fuzzy in a hentacle sort of way... One more time about using these and getting players to participate...Make this the mechanic that generates Bennies. Fuck chuckin bennies around the table during game! I hear truck brake noises everytime I try to do that. But let the other players see the wiki participating players bring the awesome from a few well deserved out of game genertated rerolls and participation will be quickly 100 percent. Oh and CADave...I used to wonder if you ever knew that you are my hero... (But after plugging JACKERCON...) You sir, are the wind beneath my wings. Cheers.
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clanhanna
Journeyman Douchebag
The Muffin
Posts: 221
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller, O.R.E, Mongoose Traveller
Currently Playing: Vampire: The Masquerade, Vampire: The Dark Ages, D&D 5e
Currently Running: Vampire: The Dark Ages
Favorite Species of Monkey: Peanut-buttery Rhesus
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Post by clanhanna on Jun 17, 2013 8:52:39 GMT -8
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jfever
Journeyman Douchebag
FEVAH!!!!
Posts: 218
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Post by jfever on Jun 17, 2013 20:32:00 GMT -8
Ok. I'm telling you right now that changing your character mid game is 80% of the time because the character wasn't developed enough. This is all the player's fault.
This has happened to me more than once in games that I've run, and I get more and more pissed when players pull this bullshit on me. I can smell it from a mile away now. When a player tells me they want to play their character because "it's cool" they will be done with that character within 4 game sessions. "Cool" does not a playable character make. A deep, invested, real character in the context of the world on the other hand, is playable forever.
I have fixed more than one player who was fickle in this manner by providing them with story investment. They make a character that they think is "cool" by whatever retarded standards they have, and I make them inject that "cool" character with real motivations, desires, flaws, and goals. They will play that character forever.
Changing characters is a flaw in player's abilities to create characters in which they can be emotionally invested. As a GM, you have to identify them before the game starts, and MAKE THEM make a real person instead of a page with numbers.
I didn't say dirty words NEARLY enough in that post. Balls ass shit smell taint hair pussy fart. aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh. that's better.
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maxinstuff
Supporter
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Post by maxinstuff on Jun 17, 2013 22:56:32 GMT -8
I think changing characters more likely has it's roots in mechanical issues rather than 'character' issues. I will bet that the 'new' characters are mechanically different (different archtype, class, abilities or whatever).
Not sure if this is a 'cultural' issue, but coming from a video gamer background, swapping characters is usually a way of experiencing all the different character types and finding out what you like - in WoW, 'alts' are the rule, not the exception. If you have gamers with this mentality (or whom are simply used to having this luxury) maybe it is a good idea to allow an alt or two? This could be a good way to wean them off of this behaviour.
Each adventure (not session, story/continuity should be preserved), the player can choose which of his characters runs with the party. Maybe the other stays with the camp and holds the fort, and just does combat drills/studies spells or what-not for a reduced level of experience (e.g. 50% - 80%).
What you will probably find is that over time the player finds their preferred character and settles on it - leaving the others aside as they fall behind in power level. Eventually you can just discard them.
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Post by ayslyn on Jun 17, 2013 23:14:00 GMT -8
Bimbos of the Death Sun.
Stork got the premise a bit wrong. The author wrote a HARD SciFi novel based on one of his theories, and the publisher renamed it to BotDS and slapped a lurid cover on it. He attends a local convention as a guest author and someone gets murdered. He helps to solve the crime.
There is a sequel as well, Zombies of the Gene Pool. Both are excellent reads.
Switching Characters
I'm mildly well known for it in my groups. I'm very fond of playing the supporting cast characters, and usually some part of their story will work itself out well before the campaign does.
I strongly recommend against taking their gear away from the new character. Sure, you can have them captives that the other PCs have to rescue, but keep their stuff nearby. If the PC is still alive, it's unlikely that the goblins in that example would have had a chance to sell off all their stuff yet. Taking their stuff away WOULD be punishing them for making a new character.
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Post by jazzisblues on Jun 18, 2013 5:30:17 GMT -8
In most every campaign I've played in at some point I have the thought that the character I'm playing just isn't working the way I want them to. This is usually an expression of my inability to think my way around something that's going on with the character. For myself this is usually a problem caused by having written something into the character that doesn't work with the other characters. As an example a character that I'm playing right now started the game with the belief that it was his responsibility to put himself in danger to protect the others so he had a tendency to want to go face the big bad monsters on his own. The problem with that was not that it would have gotten him killed but that it wasn't conducive to teamwork.
JiB
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jfever
Journeyman Douchebag
FEVAH!!!!
Posts: 218
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Post by jfever on Jun 18, 2013 5:44:04 GMT -8
Like I said before, I've dealt with players that are fickle and want to switch characters mid game. I'm speaking from experience, not speculation.
Wanting to experience different characters in a table top RPG world stems from the video game induced power game mentality. Nobody says "I just want to experience something different" when talking about changing characters mid game. I guarantee you that the player who wants to change characters approaches the GM with "Their powers/abilities/skills are awesome." and then they proceed to explain all the optimization they've explored.
What separates the table top from video games is the ability to create a character in which you can be emotionally invested. If you help this poor, misguided munchkin to create a fully developed character, they will never want to abandon them. There is a reason that people who don't want to be attached to pets don't give them names. Help the munchkin give their character a name, face, emotions, desires, motivations, flaws, and other human aspects and the character becomes something real. Their character becomes something that is extremely difficult to abandon.
Wanting to experience new characters means that your original was just numbers on a paper. Having a character attached to loot is just numbers on a paper. Loot doesn't have feelings. A real character who has goals and motivations is WAY more difficult to abandon.
shit nugget hair queef
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jfever
Journeyman Douchebag
FEVAH!!!!
Posts: 218
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Post by jfever on Jun 18, 2013 6:07:41 GMT -8
Also, let me clarify that I believe that you cannot have one without the other. Help the munchkin create a real character, but let the munchkin power game his character first. The numbers on the paper are the cigarettes, but the real character with motivations is the highly addictive heroine. Be their heroine dealer. this was the experience that ultimately changed my view: I had this player. This player was my problem player who was always looking to the next character, and never making a multi-faceted character with real motivations and feelings. He was also the GM who would run a game for a 7 sessions, and then say, "Eh . . .I'm done." A very fickle person who, at the time, I couldn't figure out what his problem was. I ran a 4th Edition DnD game, and this player created a rogue. He played the character for about 8 or 9 game sessions. The problem with his rogue was that his combat info was fully filled out, but as a character he didn't make much sense. He also had just seen the new Player's Handbook that had the monk in it, and was already expressing interest. I was fed up with his fickle nature, and told him that he needed to make his rogue more of a real person instead of "Sneaker McSneakattack". I tried to help the player figure out what the fuck type of person his rogue was, but he just couldn't seem to do it. Finally, he had a "brilliant" idea. He wanted to change characters. He came up with a real character that had motivations, flaws, wants, etc. who was a monk. He played this monk for about 6 game sessions. Then, out of nowhere, he approaches me and says,"I want to play my rogue again." He had discovered, through god damn online optimization boards, that the rogue was more efficient than a monk. I say to him,"Okay. You can play your rogue again. But on a few conditions. 1. You are NOT switching characters ever again in any of my games. and 2. Your rogue has to be far more developed. I will help you with the second." We sent a lot of emails back and forth about the rogue. We came up with some really great stuff that happened to the rogue while he was away, that created new circumstances for his rogue. The rogue now had a goal in mind, and had some serious character flaws that were going to make achieving his goal difficult. The rogue was now not only a combat beast, but he also became a real person. This player never switched from his rogue in that game. Not because I told him he couldn't. Because he genuinely didn't want to switch. I know that he didn't want to switch from making a fully developed character, because he never brought up character optimization again. He wanted to see what happened with his rogue, as did I and everyone else at the table. The moral of the story is this: While a mechanically effective character will always be important, sometimes that importance can become paramount in the eyes of a power gamer. When this happens, some power gamers lose the ability to create real characters. That's when the GM has to step in and help them make a real character. When this happens, the power gamer will not want to switch from their mechanically effective, full developed character. To all the GM's: If you have trouble helping players figure this shit out, Central Casting books are GOLD. You can find them online. .. . . . . . . . . .ya know. . . . . . . . .somewhere. They have been out of print FOREVER. I hear some pirates have found some lost copies. They may be willing to share them with you. BTW, I remember a LOOOOOOOONG time ago the hosts of HJ talked about purchasing the rights to Central Casting? ? What happened to that??
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Post by Kainguru on Jun 18, 2013 10:59:09 GMT -8
I am curious about these happy hippie games you speak of. "sniff" "sniff" Hippies? Hippies!!! ("Hulk smash") For as Saint Rotten of Sex Pistol said . . . "Neva trust a hippy". . . Aaron
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Post by jazzisblues on Jun 18, 2013 11:22:59 GMT -8
I am curious about these happy hippie games you speak of. The term generally refers to games that tend to be lighter in terms of rules and usually promote a more open narrative form of play some examples include (but are not limited to): Apocalypse World and its derivatives (most notable of which is Dungeon World) Dread Fiasco There are a wealth of others but those are the ones that leap to mind right off the bat. Fate is often grouped with these as well though more "traditional" gamers give it more acceptance for reasons of their own. I am by background a traditional gamer (Honestly, I really don't like the terms hippie and traditional games but that's what we have to work with at the moment.) but I have played all of the above listed games and found them to be most enjoyable. Monster Hearts is another, but one I have not yet played. JiB
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Post by Kainguru on Jun 18, 2013 11:54:58 GMT -8
Seriously I want to know who the Sock Puppets are? Even a hint from NSA Stu as to current contenders? I've my own suspicions . . . Perhaps we should run a book on it: assign odds to names take bets and see what happens - all winnings going to a good cause Aaron
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on Jun 18, 2013 13:54:04 GMT -8
Someone wanna run a game "Wrath of the Sock Puppets? Into Flameness..."
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