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Post by The Northman on Aug 11, 2013 5:31:04 GMT -8
The digitized consciousness thing is done excellently (and the first place I saw it) in Richard Morgan's Takeshi Kovacs novels, beginning with Altered Carbon. Some of the best recent sci-fi out there. I'm borderline nerd raging that no one mentioned it during the segment. Speaking of which, if you're already swiping the core concept, maybe that game idea works better by stealing another: digital information can be copied. The mystery is what the -other- you has been doing while you've been sleeping. www.richardkmorgan.com/
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 11, 2013 6:13:39 GMT -8
I would add Sean Williams 'Astropolis' Series as detailing both digital consciousness and transhumananism . . . including what can happen when you have multiple digital backups of a human consciousness taken at different periods of time. seanwilliams.com/words/books/sci-fi/Aaron
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HyveMynd
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HJRPG1010
Aug 11, 2013 6:23:37 GMT -8
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Post by HyveMynd on Aug 11, 2013 6:23:37 GMT -8
I haven't listened to the episode yet, but I saw "digital "consciousness" and "transhumanism" in the thread here. Two words: Eclipse Phase. It is the most thoroughly thought out RPG setting ever, in terms of exploring how technology will impact human life. I cannot recommend it highly enough. These are books you can read just for the fluff. And just in case you're wondering, it's not a hippie game. So it must be damn good if I like it. Edit: Well I'm an idiot. The emailer was already using Eclipse Phase. Duh. There's a published adventure module for Eclipse Phase called Continuity which has an almost identical set up to what the emailer suggested. This is the blurb for the module: As far as worrying about players saying "My character wouldn't do that!" and ruining the adventure, there are ways around that. The tech level in E clipse Phase is so advanced that people can tinker with each other's brains and personalities. So it is entirely possible that you DID burn down that orphanage because the you that you were then is different from the you that you are now. Got it? Plus, people make digital copies of their consciousnesses, shoot them across space, and then sleeve them into temporary morphs (bodies) to attend important meetings. Once the meeting is done, the sleeve is returned to the morph storage bank, the copy if the person is shot back across space, and then reintegrated with the original consciousness. That way the original person knows what the copy learned while it was away. Those are called forks. It is illegal to make an Alpha Fork of yourself (which is an exact, 100% accurate copy), because then there is essentially a second you running around the solar system. Instead, forks are intentionally hobbled when they are made, having only immediate memories, and a limited skill set. Those are Beta Forks and Gamma Forks. All Forks also have a time limit, and must be merged with the original person within that time limit or are destroyed. Of course, just because certain things are illegal doesn't mean people don't do them. There is a criminal organization in the Eclipse Phase setting that consists entirely of Alpha Forks of the same person. Alway, my point here is that it is entirely possibly, and setting appropriate, for someone to have tampered with the brains of the PCs during the missing two months. When they were kidnapped or signed up for whatever job they did, whomever hired them could have made a backup copy, put it on ice, then rewired the character's personalities and memories into something more appropriate for the job. Hell, the PCs may even have agreed to the modification procedure since they still have a backup copy of themselves somewhere. Two months pass, their insurance policy kicks in, and they get reinstated as their original selves. Probably with a nice, fat paycheck somewhere. But how do they know those copies of themselves aren't still out there, sleeved into a Reaper morph doing god knows what? Were there Forks made of themselves during those missing two months? Does someone have a copy of them "on file" somewhere? Are they sure the backup copies they just used weren't also tampered with? That is the horror of the Eclipse Phase setting; are you actually you, and how would you even know if you weren't?
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Aug 11, 2013 19:00:54 GMT -8
Also, I call bullshit on DnD Dad and Stu Venable's claim that Illinois is the sweatiest place on Earth. Come try a Japanese summer on for size.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Aug 12, 2013 1:17:32 GMT -8
heavymetaljess Is there a reason why the court trial would not bring justice? (Is this scene leading to a larger story, a conspiracy; or is this the end of a story?) AD&D used to be a heavily story-based mechanic game. Fluff was mechanic. Description was mechanic. That's why there was no mechanic for fluff or description. If you did not pay attention walking into the trap, you were dead. GM experience or duchyness came out in this mechanic. That mechanic was very player-centric. GM Fiat for the purposes of story. stu 's idea, having the player(s) as prosecutor(s), is based upon the medieval concept of facing one's accuser. It makes sense (then as it does now in a science fiction world if you want). The NPC(s) wants to know what the PC(s) knows and he or she wants to refute the "evidence." If it is a conspiracy, the PC(s) should get to know where the lines are drawn from this exercise. Again, DM Fiat should be involved in the GM making obvious tells for the observant/engrossed player. Someone is obviously lying on behalf of the accused and the judge, hearing the PC's rebuttal obviously disregards it underlining and emphasizing to the PCs the judge is corrupt. If the PC/player(s) is obtuse, spell it out: (data) the judge seems to have made up his mind before you had spoken. Or simply provide the information: the judge is corrupt. If it were happening in real life to the players, they would intuit it. There is no need to complicate this with a dice roll for perception check, or for PCs maintaining cool under frustration and injustice to avoid being thrown into a dungeon for contempt, etc. Don’t be a douche bag and have the moment bring you and the other player closer together in the story. No one needs to be a trial lawyer to play a social game. Who the hell is John Grisham writing for? Lawyers? Is that the only people going to see The Firm? Is that why no one understood the film 12 Angry Men? Maybe Mission Impossible is only marketed to military contractors? Maybe all foreigners going to see Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy should be arrested? If you do not know who Kim Philby is then you cannot play Top Secret? Well, okay then, lucky you. You do not want to play with such people anyways. ps to this above, because I have to say it: you are not playing against a system in an RPG (like it is in a board game) but you are playing with another person or persons. And if you cannot hack this, if you need a system as a shield against the other person(s) at the table, perhaps the problem is deeper than what an RPG can manage. And the point of the above paragraph is this: Let’s not go overboard with the rules beautification fashion over simple social role-play. If you’re a reasonable GM – not even a particularly good GM just reasonable – social role-play will work. Just get the player involved and avoid cutscenes talking to your self. Keep the player(s) in the story at the table. [Things can happen behind the scenes, and should, but these behind the scenes should not become DM monologues at the table beyond opening your game: how your world worked up until the player(s) arrives.] If the player(s) has not gathered the evidence to make the case, and then they will lose the case justly, bring that out. A judge will say the case is dismissed for these reasons. This becomes a clue for the player(s) to continue the campaign. Also it provides ninjas – because the player(s)’ agenda has been exposed. And, of course, if it all seems hopeless for your NPC baddie, he can appeal for trial by combat to let God (the ultimate authority in the middle ages) decide the right of might. Maybe he will confess to the NPC on the field with his dying breath? Maybe the NPC was forced to demand combat by the person more powerful above him…? DM Fiat for the win of story. You know this NPC is going to go down. Maybe he was poisoned to ensure it. That’s pretty dramatic. In AD&D 1e there were reaction rolls. You meet a group of X at a range of 6d4” and roll reaction to parlay attempt (adjusting for alignment and conditions). If player suggests a Kumbaya sing along when encountering Chaotic Evil, chances are good it will not be as successful when encountering Chaotic Good, Lawful Good, or even Neutral. If you have a trail by jury and do not want CHA to be a dump stat in this case, you can use this table Most GMs brought up with rules heavy systems are conditioned to say you need to know the rules of a system cold. (To my mind: cock-blocking minutia dwelling nerds who suck the social interaction joy like marrow from the RPGs’ original intention.) Back in the day, you needed to know your world and the story that your characters chose to become entangled with cold; and the rules were suggestions how to resolve whatever you chose to resolve with them. And players were engaged. So I do not know if anything I have written above is of any use today, but that’s how I would handle it and my view.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Aug 12, 2013 4:42:30 GMT -8
addicted2aaThe year is 2019 and the place is the Zetatek Penal Facility in quiet upstate New York. You are a member of a small, recidivist band of cyberpunks assembled by an unseen employer whom you have jovially nicknamed "The Voice". Though entirely unknown to you, The Voice sought you out personally through your local network of contacts. They were the ones who proposed you for the job and made themselves the fixers for the deal. These guys were chill on the street but it was not until the incentives materialized that you knew you had hit The Big Time. Hey, personal references are fine but Eurobucks are the grease in the machine, right? The Voice tells you to Go LEO and steal the design specifications for a new Zetatek computer under development on Crystal Palace, a shining star set within the opulent blackness of off-world political intrigue. Your cover is solid, the operation is planned to military precision and you should be stateside before anyone ever knows you even left. If someone gets hurt along the way, well, that's too bad. YOU were never there. And you never were. Air marshals apprehended you in Night City. Now, in the basement levels of Zetatek's Dannemora Facility, the voice of a stranger relates your story to you. He is there to rescue you and to help you complete the job. But, first, if you would kindly lay back on the table, he will undo the effects of the mindwipe. ALT · CYBERPUNK · ADVENTURE · POLITICS · THREE_OR_FOUR· CHARACTERS
A high stakes job for Rockers, Netrunners, Medias, Medics and EdgeRunners in general who think they can steal the secrets of a zaibatsu, uncover an international conspiracy & live to tell about it. === "By 1990, Kidnapping will be the dominant mode of social interaction." Woody Allen ================================================================================= Now, that's the game that has been prepared. If players agree to step into that story, the railroad ends. The story takes different turns when the characters enter the story, player agency begins and they can accept or reject their past, including denying burning orphanages. They can even deny they are in a prison but wil soon be left alone to deal with the reality of their situation. (Could be a short game for douche bags.) But the world and all the evidence supports the accusation, as written on the back of this adventure, that they did burn down the orphans. Is it going to be just like the Bourne Identity? Maybe not. It would be entirely up to the players once they get out of the prison - a metaphor for the busting out of the railroad. Player Agency is sacrosanct. Players choose player characters based on the description of the characters. All characters start at the beginning as they re-learn their skills and recall who they are. [The target city is on the west coast and the starting point is on the east coast so they have plenty of time to figure some things out.] The party has a Netrunner (obviously - plugs, right?) but the game is open to other characters. Focus on the NPCs and let the players will focus on their PCs - even if they wish to deny taking part in what you have told them is their past... Do watch the Bourne Identity with Richard Chamberlain if you can. Or think Neuromancer. Really it plays out either way.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 5:26:43 GMT -8
At the 5:00 mark: Is "Advent of Android" a new holiday?
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Aug 12, 2013 5:38:21 GMT -8
Bennies are a tool, just like any other rules set in your game. Alter them however you see fit. No GM should ever feel like he/she/it is handcuffed by the game he/she/it is choosing to run.
Void points are DEFINITELY a bennie, just a mechanical one instead of an rp induced one. You can use them on 99% of the rolls in the game. Yes, there are multiple ways to refresh void points but as a GM I can curb those ways very easily if I want a grittier game. For example, traveling in the Shadowlands? Guess what you don't rest as well as you are used to, so you only recover 1 or two void points a night. Tea in the Shadowlands? Not happening.
The Rokugani absolutely use coins! I did a game once where all my PCs were ronin and I did a very economic thing. I made them count every penny and they had lots of issues trying to feed themselves. It was different than anything I had ever run before and it was very finicky, but interesting. In my current game we are currently taking a break and will come back to them at the Carpenter Wall. There will be repeated forays into the Shadowlands where supplies are scarce. During those scenes keeping track of resources will be incredibly important.
"Star Wipe" sounds like something you'd buy in an adult bookstore.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 6:04:36 GMT -8
I found it odd that throughout the discussion of the trial scenario, it was assumed roleplay would precede the die roll. Misgivings about social mechanics seemed largely based on this assumption. However ...
Why not roll the dice then roleplay the results?
Here's another thought, not fully baked:
Prosecution and defense lay out their respective arguments, each expressed as a list of key pieces of evidence and rhetorical points. Prosecution and defense take turns presenting. For each piece of evidence or rhetorical point, make a roll (skill check, reaction roll, etc.) to see if the judge found it convincing.
Side with the most convincing evidence and rhetoric wins! Simple and straightforward, but allows for building tension as each side moves closer to the goal.
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addicted2aa
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Post by addicted2aa on Aug 12, 2013 8:33:45 GMT -8
I found it odd that throughout the discussion of the trial scenario, it was assumed roleplay would precede the die roll. Misgivings about social mechanics seemed largely based on this assumption. However ... Why not roll the dice then roleplay the results?Came here to say pretty much this. I know that some groups work this way by default, even in combat. You never say what you are attempting to do, you roll, then describe your success or failure. Obviously this requires you trust you're players, but if you don't trust your players, get new players. I also want to add another point, of how I do social encounters, in a system with large social combat rules. In Green Ronin's, Song of Ice and Fire, there is a whole social combat system, with social HP and Armor, attacks and damage, maneuvers, everything you would expect for a physical combat system. It's meant to take multiple rounds to do something like charm someone into liking you more, or convince the king to go to war. Something simple like bribing a guard is still a single roll. When I run this system, if at a certain point a player makes a convincing argument, says an amazing line(for seduction), or any other thing that I think would work on the character they are trying to influence, I don't give them a bonus, I just say they win and end the combat early. For good arguments that there are still counters to I give a bonus. I don't let a dice roll invalidate a successful RP. If you bring up the one thing that will convince a character to act, they act, no questions asked. If you bring up a passion, but not one for which they would burn the world, you get a bonus. If you make a horrible gaff in social etiquette, I let you use the dice to save your character from your mistakes. I do this for two reasons. 1) You want to reward clever thinking and players who are invested enough to pick up the hints about what is a good tact to use against a certain character. 2) You want to prevent the intelligent witty charismatic extrovert with average to above average social stats from dominating every social scene, when the shy, stuttering, socially awkward, somewhat slow, introvert wanted to play a smooth talking pimp-machine. Yes you could do that group puzzle thing mentioned in this episode where witty guy helps out Mr. Stutters, but that may still feel like Witty guy is doing the win and not give Mr. Stutters a chance to really fell like he is a true Mack daddy, slicker than any showy shyster.
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Post by heavymetaljess on Aug 12, 2013 8:46:46 GMT -8
So as some clarification, my rough plan was to use basic mechanics but only as a back-up to the roleplaying. The cleric has a very high Charisma so using ability checks with each bit of evidence would give her a landslide win and I don't think that would be fun for the player. I like the idea of using a combination of the reaction adjustment and non-weapon proficiences. She doesn't have Debate, Rhetoric, or Law so that might make it feel more balanced and maybe give her a reason to take one of them at her next level. She'll most likely be doing this again in the future. As Stu brought up, with a one-on-one game it’s hard to balance the action. There will be one judge and no jury, but the trial will involve a great number of witnesses. Maybe with the offer of beers I can convince a couple people to join in for one session to play the judge (love this idea) and some witnesses. I think @jonmcnally’s back and forth method will help with that, too. Having the Happy Jack’s crew join in would be a fun idea, but I’m on the East coast. CreativeCowboy: Yes, there is an especially dark conspiracy at work. This trial will determine how much more the cleric finds out about that corruption. I was hoping basic mechanics might help me determine who betrays what information when. I don’t want to shoot the plot load too early, but I also don’t want to hold on to the evidence so tightly that the player misses the clues. I’m still pretty new to GMing and those types of subtleties are sometimes hard for me to grasp. You also bring up trial by combat. I hadn't thought to use this, but I really like the idea as a way to build more roleplaying opportunities (like a death bed confession). Thanks everyone for another great round of input. I’ll be sure to give an update on how it goes.
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addicted2aa
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Post by addicted2aa on Aug 12, 2013 9:10:06 GMT -8
@happyjacks crew and community Thanks for the advice and reading my email. As I right now we are playing this wed, so it's most appreciated. I seem to be getting mostly yes's so I think I'm gonna run it as I have written(for the most part) depending on responses to the paragraph below. Stu mentioned loading this up front, telling them beforehand. I originally didn't want to do this and still kinda don't. I like starting adventures off with a kick to nuts. Something big that immediately draws players in. I feel like giving the players a few minutes of normalcy before flipping their world does that. Furthermore, I think it plays to the point Jib always harps on. Make the players feel an emotion. This will have the players as equally confused as their characters, which I feel will give them a much deeper sense of emotion. It seems, if I pull it off right, like it could be one of those moments that get oft repeated in gamer stories for the next decade or so in our group. If I pull it off wrong it will still probably be one of those stories but not the kind I want. Anyway, I agree that giving them that knowledge before hand empowers them to make the choices to fit that scene and gives them a sense of ownership about it but do you think that trade off is worth it? I admit I'm very worried, for while I have pretty good players, we do have our occasional meta argument about the GM and player having different understanding of characters, so the risk of either derailment or upset feelings is real. It was also mentioned, I believe by Tyler, saving this till later in the campaign. I have another adventure(a space station designed for larps, The AI that is running it has become corrupted. One of the levels of the station is Tomb of Horrors) I could spin off that would take a couple of sessions. I won't get that bang opening, but I'll have a much better understanding of their characters, and it might effect them even more to have this happen to a character they are beginning to identify with. So if ya'll got the time and inclination to help out a bit more I would to hear some thoughts. Below here are forum responses. Speaking of which, if you're already swiping the core concept, maybe that game idea works better by stealing another: digital information can be copied. The mystery is what the -other- you has been doing while you've been sleeping. www.richardkmorgan.com/I'll check it out. The missing fork is an excellent idea, but there are traits that correspond to that and none of my players took them. It also doesn't work that well with the set up I have written so would require some rejiggering. It may come up later though. I can't figure out Multi-Quote So.. KainguruThanks, I'll add that to the list. I'm severely lacking when it comes to fiction that matches the EP genre. HyveMyndI just downloaded Continuity. I'll give it a read before I run. Thanks for the heads up. The big enemy for the first part of the campaign is a digital virus that rewrites the way you think and act and slowly infects your backups every time you make a new save. Hence why they have such a large time gap, they had to go to a clean back up that Firewall saved. I've been advised else where to use that as the explanation of why they did things that are totally out of character, but I'm not sure how to get them that information. OR rather I'm not sure if I want to give them that information early, when they may first encounter discordant actions, where there is the potential for nerd rage and butt hurt-ness, or wait till later, closer to the climax, as I originally planned, and use it as a way of explaining after the fact, which does nothing to help the "hurt" that cames when they felt I've betrayed their character concept, three sessions earlier. CreativeCowboyThat has pregens, which is an entirely different beast. If you as the GM make the character, the player won't feel ownership until they've played the character for awhile. My players have already made characters for the most part and even if they hadn't I wouldn't want to run a campaign with characters I created.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Aug 12, 2013 9:59:12 GMT -8
CreativeCowboyThat has pregens, which is an entirely different beast. If you as the GM make the character, the player won't feel ownership until they've played the character for awhile. My players have already made characters for the most part and even if they hadn't I wouldn't want to run a campaign with characters I created. You can have the players make their characters, and I would advise a one-on-one discussion or interview whereby they tell you their vision for the character - with the understanding and agreement (or social contract) the module will run. After the character is created you hang onto it. The need for a Netrunner is to have someone who can do a bit of fishing for the players. A Netrunner will be, essentially, regurgitating what was said to you in the interview. You will be placing the world names onto things so you and the players are on the same page based upon the information they feed you. They are starting at level one but not fresh faced. So you have the whole "how did you get to where you are?" and "why did you murder the baby?" questions that HyveMynd likes so much. In my mind, if someone does not want to play a Netrunner in a Cyberpunk game... well, that calls for an NPC within the party. Now for the GM to abstract reason why a travelling Nomad, or an influential Media or some Corporate all from diverse architype "classes" got it together in the first place... I suggest asking the players when you have them all together. If they do not offer a reason, blame it on the mindwipe and feed it back to them piece by piece in dreams and flashbacks during the adventure. Maybe the girl the Corporate and the Solo were both dating (and who is part of this mess) isn't the best bond between them but, hey, that's your territory as GM unless the players speak first. Who knows? Maybe even they did not know about the triangle beforehand...
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 12, 2013 11:10:54 GMT -8
heavymetaljess I have somewhere in my realms of old archived game materials a judicial mechanic specifically for 2e - it was cobbled together from various sources and gives the incremental bonuses for things like charisma etc. It was a TOOL for RP not a replacement . . . you *could* use it to resolve the process with dice rolls but it was actually supposed to be used to take make the decision/justice less arbitrary (by that I mean purely by GM fiat or story goals driven ie: it's a sandbox mechanic). IIRC I 'borrowed' a large chunk from Thieves World by Chaosium, mainly sentencing, and the 2e WaterDeep Boxed set.
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addicted2aa
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Post by addicted2aa on Aug 12, 2013 11:25:08 GMT -8
heavymetaljessWould it be possible to run this like a normal combat? By that I mean, create a THACO based on the characters wis or will save(I don't know D&D very well, so excuses mistakes in jargon) and use bonus' like rank to act as armor, hit points based off your intelligence,(or hit die completely based on class, again don't know D&D) attacks made with charisma, with different pieces of evidence acting like weapons? I mean, it's a game meant to do combat, and really all a trial is Rhetorical combat. Instead of swords they use words. You might think this negates the roleplay, but it doesn't. While you may be able to make a passionate plea to sway the judge, you simply don't have the rhetorical skill you're opponent does. So while the judge becomes sympathetic to your cause, your opponent is still right with the details of the law. The Roleplay will inform the interpersonal relationships that come from the case, but not the actual out come of the case itself, just like the Roleplay doesn't inform the outcome of a combat the dice do.
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