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Post by Kainguru on Aug 15, 2013 14:36:34 GMT -8
Oh yeah Temple it still is . . . Though I have them commissioned by the Viscount : specific services for free training (precisely because I wanted to kick the story along a bit without this distraction), plus they've exposed the extent of the Temples resources and FINALLY unmasked the traders so the intensive training rules hidden away in T3 have come into play (3 days instead of week due to access to dedicated trainers). Hommlet is now on war footing and gearing up it's defences. The forces of good are mobilising but need time to marshal their armies . . . PC's job now is to buy them that time by checking the forces of Evil to the best of their ability ie: do as much damage as they can in the time they've got. Of course the final encounter is a long way from what they expect and the presence of any armies not with standing it'll still be a heroic do or die effort. As to how long to assemble the armies? - THAT is at the speed of plot Add to that the gritty badness I love - they're 6th level now therefore proper heroes and known by those they oppose. They've done their research, even now (so to speak) certain family members are being sought out by agents and kidnapped - the best shield? one made of living meat in the form of loved ones (To this end I hope to bargin/engineer the escape of one particular recurring villain* when/if the Temple falls . . . ) Aaron * the estranged and deranged sister of one of the PC's
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Post by bloodsparrow on Aug 15, 2013 18:40:34 GMT -8
@d.T.Pints
I am totally down with the idea of resource management adding to the at tention of the particular setting. Much later, with the same GM, we played a d20 Modern game that was based on Fallout. Resource management in that game was supremely important, that's how we liked it. (Although finding an onion to wear on your belt was really hard.)
The difference between that game and the one I described in my previous post... (Alas poor Food Horse #2. I knew him Horatio.) ...Is that, in our Fallout inspired game, we expected the management of our resources. A lot of post-apocalyptic genre living is figuring out how to survive.
This other game was high fantasy, and we never ever bothered with it up until that point. So it came quite out of the blue. We had played these characters from level one and never had bothered with tracking time or resources in such a detailed way previously. So when he brought it up we were quite advanced in level and I had spells that would handle that sort of thing for us. But rather than say "I have these spells that will negate the need for these things", we let him have his fun. And once the trip was over he never asked me again about ticking off boxes for money or spell slots when we traveled long distances.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Aug 16, 2013 0:32:43 GMT -8
Remember, AD&D 1e (the direct descendent of the original role-playing concept before which only existed boys pretending to be Tom Mix) is a game that is totally abstract. This abstract game mechanic is highlighted over and over and over in the guide and handbook, both explicitly and implicitly. In the Guide, on page 85 Note: Players who balk at equating gold pieces to experience points should be gently but firmly reminded that in a game certain compromises must be made. While it is more "realistic" for clerics to study holy writings, pray, chant, practice self-discipline, etc. to gain experience, it would not make a playable game roll along. Similarly, fighters should be exercising, riding, smiting pelts, tilting at the lists, and engaging in weapons practice of various sorts to gain real expertise (experience); magic-users should be deciphering old scrolls, searching ancient tomes, experimenting alchemically, and so forth; while thieves should spend their off-hours honing their skills, "casing" various buildings, watching potential victims, and carefully planning their next "job". All very realistic but conducive to non-game boredom! A player’s successful dice roll leading to a reduction of hit points could easily reflect the opponent's exhaustion in armour - that bit of luck, which hit points represent - or it could be a solid strike against the opponent. There was no maiming. No struggling band of hobbled, crippled and permanently damaged (physically or intellectually) characters for players to play marching into the next adventure. There was cosmetic fluff because a player wanted to ham it up. Of course the whole game created at each individual table was based on the shared tokings from a collaborative communal fluff pipe of creative imagining, very much unlike the somber strictures and inch mark rulers of a tabletop wargame. To my ideal vision of RPGs, those wargame nerds who argue the impracticalities of smoothbore versus rifling as part of their game represent the stereotypical pedantic nerds to me – rather not the whole body of role-players within the RPG hobby – with only rare exceptions proving how difficult it is to break out from the stereotype. So in this regard, in regards to the whole of the work in which the emphasis is found, I think the emphasis on accurate time keeping is important. Also, bare in mind, this game was not released into the world to create nerd cliques or to build social barriers between those in-crowd nerds who play and those out-crowd dude who do not. I have mentioned my experience included religious evangelicals, jocks and potheads together at the same table where I learnt to play as a teenager. I have mentioned my open door policy with the game I have run in Warsaw, whereby new people are regularly encouraged to join the game; the opposite policy of the Pathfinder group which discourages more than a set load of people. I suspect an abstract game allowed for a blending of such diverse social groups in the first place, and that the game was never supposed to create an in-crowd group in the second place. Not to mention that when it comes to a sandbox game where players are off in the same world doing different things or being joined by new players, I believe time keeping is crucial. “Your mileage may vary” is synonymous with the whole role-playing gestalt of an abstract game that only rules heavy games may attempt to standardize. This brings me to the reason to emphasize a standard in time keeping within D&D prior to the much less abstract game that is D&D’s third incarnation. Not understanding the crucial importance of time (and by that I mean to whatever degree time keeping is necessary in your specific game) suggests a lack of understanding of the potential for role-playing. TIME IN THE CAMPAIGN Game time is of utmost importance. Failure to keep careful track of time expenditure by player characters will result in many anomalies in the game. The stricture of time is what makes recovery of hit points meaningful. Likewise, the time spent adventuring in wilderness areas removes concerned characters from their bases of operation – be they rented chambers or battlemented strongholds. Certainly the most important time stricture pertains to the manufacture of magic items, for during the period of such activity no adventuring can be done. Time is also considered in gaining levels and learning new languages and more. All of these demands upon game time force choices upon player characters, and likewise number their days of game life.
One of the things stressed in the original game of D8D was the importance of recording game time with respect to each and every player character in a campaign. In AD&D it is emphasized even more: YOU CAN NOT HAVE A MEANINGFUL CAMPAIGN IF STRICT TIME RECORDS ARE NOT KEPT.
Use whatever grouping of days you find desirable for your milieu. There is nothing wrong with 7 day weeks and 31, 30 and 28/29 day months which exactly correspond to our real system. On the other hand, there is nothing to prevent you from using some other system if it pleases you and you can keep it straight. What is important to the campaign is that you do, in fact, maintain a time record which logs the activities and whereabouts of player characters and their henchmen.
For the sake of example, let us assume that you begin your campaign on Day 1 of the Year 1OOO. There are four player characters who begin initially, and they have adventures which last a total of 50 days - 6 days of actual adventuring and 44 days of resting and other activity. At this point in time two new players join the game, one of the original group decides to go to seek the advice of an oracle after hiring an elven henchman, and the remaining three "old boys" decide they will not go with the newcomers. So on Day 51 player A's character is off on a journey, those of B, C, and D are resting on their laurels, and E and F enter the dungeon. The latter pair spend the better part of the day surviving, but do well enough to rest a couple of game days and return for another try on Day 54 - where they stumble upon the worst monster on the first level, surprise it, and manage to slay it and come out with a handsome treasure. You pack it in for the night. Four actual days later (and it is best to use 1 actual day = 1 game day when no play is happening), on Day 55, player characters B, C, and D enter the dungeon and find that the area they selected has already been cleaned out by player characters E and F. Had they come the day after the previous game session, game Day 52, and done the same thing, they would have found the monster and possibly gotten the goodies! What to do about that? And what about old A and his pointy-eared chum off to see the oracle?
Players have found the remains of previous adventurers in my game this way, which is a nice way to tie people/players together as a unit. When the players mention what they have done and the new players say yes, we went the same route and found evidence of your passing through, that’s pretty special. It should be obvious to anyone reading that Gary is describing a living world in his devotion to time keeping. If you play with the same bunch of people day-in and day-out in a world “zoo” tailored to the players (only the appropriate spider bite occurs at the appropriate time in a kind of Disneyland world railroad, which is my Pathfinder game) then this fuss about time keeping won’t be understood much less appreciated. Some penalty must accrue to the non-active, but on the other hand, the over-active cannot be given the world on a silver platter. Despite time differences, the activities of the newcomers to the campaign should be allowed to stand, as Destiny has decreed that the monster in question could not fall to the characters B, C, and D. Therefore, the creature was obviously elsewhere (not dead) when they visited its lair on Day 52, but it had returned on Day 56. Being aware of time differences between groups of player characters will enable you to prevent the BIG problems. You will know when the adventuring of one such group has gone far enough ahead in game time to call a halt. This is particularly true with regard to town/dungeon adventures. Returning to player character A and his trek to visit a far-off source of supernatural lore, he and his elven companion set off on Day 51, journey across the land for 11 days, visit the oracle and remain 3 days, then come back in another 11 days (wonder of wonders!). This comes to a total of 25 days all told, counting Day 51, so they come "home" on Day 75 and are set to adventure on Day 77, let us suppose, as a brief rest is in order. Allowing that activity to be not unusual for a single session of play, then player character A and his henchman are ready to play about the same actual time as the other players - only A is at Day 77, B, C, and D are at Day 54, and E and F are at Day 58. The middle group must go first, and alone, or it can opt to "sit around' waiting for A or for E and F or for both parties, or they can operate alone for another short adventure in terms of game time, thus taking advantage of their temporal position. Other options include any of the players singly are in time-related groups going off on outdoor adventures. In the case of players so segregating their characters, it then becomes necessary for you, as DM, to inform prospective participants in a game session that there is a hiatus which will necessitate only certain members of their number playing together, as their respective characters cannot locate the others of the separated groups. At this juncture they should be informed of their options, and if players B, C, and D do not choose to take advantage of their favored position, then game time will pass more swiftly for them, as the other participants must be allowed to adventure - in the dungeon if they so desire Thus, players E and F would have the choice of awaiting the return of A or of going on adventures which involved only the two characters. In effect, player character A is out of it until game time in the central playing area reaches Day 75, when communications can be made – or until other player characters contact him on his return from the oracle, let us say, assuming nothing important transpired during the return trip. These new players could catch up on needed XP, according to time keeping. It also provides players the incentive to move along rather than navel gaze – and I remind you of the horrific eMail chains I have endured with rules-heavy players just to form a game schedule. Another log I can toss to the pyre of sandbox without time is when my actions have been retconned due to a lack of GM timekeeping, whereby the lack of time keeping makes it necessary to keep all players together. This promotes a kind of understanding that informs play much like when you played cops and robbers as a kid and the jail had no bars but you did not attempt to escape because you understood. In effect, the key is the relative import of the player characters' actions in the time frame Generally, time passes day-for-day, or turn for X number of real minutes during active play. Players who choose to remove their characters from the center of dungeon activity will find that "a lot has happened while they were away," as adventures in the wilderness certainly use up game days with rapidity, while the shorter time scale of dungeon adventuring allows many game sessions during a month or two of game time. Of course, this might mean that the players involved in the outdoors someplace will either have to come home to "sit around" or continue adventuring in wildernesses and perhaps in some distant dungeon as well (if you are kind); otherwise, they will perforce be excluded from game sessions which are taking place during a period of game time in which they were wandering about in the countryside doing other things. This latter sanction most certainly applies to characters learning a new language, studying and training for promotion in level, or off someplace manufacturing magic items.
At some point, even the stay-at-homes will be forced to venture forth into the wilderness due to need, geas, quest, or possibly to escape the wrath of something better avoided. The time lines of various player characters will diverge, meet, and diverge again over the course of game years. This makes for interesting campaigns and helps form the history of the milieu. Groups of players tend to segregate themselves for a time, some never returning to the ken of the rest, most eventually coming back to reform into different bands. As characters acquire henchmen, the better players will express a desire to operate some of theirs independently while they, or their liege lord, are away. This is a perfectly acceptable device, for it tends to even out characters and the game. Henchmen tend to become associates - or rivals - this way, although a few will remain as colorless servitors. I read certainly the opportunity within the game where time is recorded for players, to play fleshed in henchmen (the pre-generated henchmen fleshing in taking place through the players’ play of the game not from a 10 –1 00 page submission of fan fiction to the GM) against their main storyline characters. You can talk about GM popcorn moments when players want to either divert their main character’s storyline or simply swab out their main characters in favour of their henchmen. You may ask why time is so important if it causes such difficulties with record-keeping, dictates who can or can not go adventuring during a game session, and disperses player characters to the four winds by its strictures. Well, as initially pointed out, it is a necessary penalty imposed upon characters for certain activities. Beyond that, it also gives players yet another interesting set of choices and consequences. The latter tends to bring more true-to-life quality to the game, as some characters will use precious time to the utmost advantage, some will treat it lightly, and some will be constantly wasting it to their complete detriment. Time is yet another facet which helps to separate the superior players from the lesser ones. If time-keeping is a must from a penalty standpoint, it is also an interesting addition from the standpoint of running a campaign.
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andreasdavour
Patron (Supporter)
Posts: 257
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Post by andreasdavour on Aug 16, 2013 5:20:46 GMT -8
Impressive post there, Cowboy.
I think it was kind of bad for the discussion that Tyler went off his rant about Gary not being the end all be all of GMs. It's especially ironic since I usually complain about "Gygaxitis" to people that put Gary on a pedestal.
That being said, what I though when I sent in that email was that it is a great starting point for a discussion about time in campaign worlds, and what that means for the type of game you play. The resource management conversation that followed was of course a natural off shoot of that. I liked it. Sadly, the discussion got a bit far from the discussion about time, but I enjoyed it non the less.
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 16, 2013 6:49:47 GMT -8
Actually I'd have amended Tylers analogy - so that it's more accurate: "Gary and Dave may have played sandwich with RPG and the parentage of her offspring remains questionable, many people since then have tried to marry her but she's fickle simply bedding most for a brief time while they're popular, she's been abused by some, and always says 'you're the best' until someone new catches her short span of attention with their rubber gloves, oil, leather and an assortment of interesting objects" Aaron PS: Quite how Gary or Dave used Chainmail to sell 'their' miniatures is questionable, rather it's just reactionary bullshit . . . TSR never made miniatures at that time, hell they had trouble making the original 'white box'in their basement let alone being able to create lost wax castings, moulds and injecting hot tin/lead alloys. PPS: Interesting how time time sours how most designers are considered . . . once upon a time Monte Cook was the resurrected christ savior of RPG's. Maybe it's less about the designers and speaks more of the nature of this audience - we make them and then we break them just as soon as some other fresh faced designer steps out of a nearby alleyway flashes leg and whispers the promise of sweet nothings in our ears . .
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
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Post by D.T. Pints on Aug 16, 2013 8:09:37 GMT -8
PPS: Interesting how time time sours how most designers are considered . . . once upon a time Monte Cook was the resurrected christ savior of RPG's. Maybe it's less about the designers and speaks more of the nature of this audience - we make them and then we break them just as soon as some other fresh faced designer steps out of a nearby alleyway flashes leg and whispers the promise of sweet nothings in our ears . . Well, hello Mr. Bass Player
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Aug 16, 2013 10:17:11 GMT -8
addicted2aa You might find this interesting: www.morningskye.com/silent-memories.htmlYou awaken from a cryogenic sleep aboard a spaceship with no knowledge of who you are or how you came to be here. You have no knowledge of your mission, or even where you are going. All that remains is your training, and the impending sense that something is very wrong. andreasdavourThanks for the approbation, friend.
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 16, 2013 11:15:05 GMT -8
It is statements like this that make me want to pull out my hair (were I to have hair).
The 1st Edition of DMG is very much a product of its time, and I really wish people would stop thinking of it as some sort of bible or source of wisdom. This is not to say there isn't wisdom in it, there certainly is. But just because something comes from 1E DMG does not mean that it is correct, wise or relevant.
By Gary's own words, a "superior" player is one who manages his resources (in this came time) efficiently, and a "lesser-player" is one who does not.
There is absolutely no room in his thinking for characterization. If a player were to make a character who was a lazy wastrel, who does not put his time to good use, then this must be, by Gary's thinking, a "lesser player."
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 16, 2013 11:21:00 GMT -8
And I find it ironic, in a hobby that was persecuted by religious zealots, that we quote from the 1E DMG as if we were reciting bible verses.
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 16, 2013 11:33:02 GMT -8
Though "persecuted" is probably too strong of a word.
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 16, 2013 11:35:49 GMT -8
Though "persecuted" is probably too strong of a word. Vilified ? Aaron
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 16, 2013 11:36:22 GMT -8
Bothered.
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
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Post by D.T. Pints on Aug 16, 2013 11:55:45 GMT -8
Diddled ? (Aren't most religious zealots adept diddlers ?) And yes in my mind this: EQUALS Making fire by rubbing two sticks together is ok...(just ask a boy scout : eating meat on a stick cooked over a campfire is fun once in a while...But then someone went and invented sushi... Things have improved.
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Post by rickno7 on Aug 16, 2013 11:58:17 GMT -8
Maybe in California you were bothered.
In North Georgia its vilified and persecuted.
I agree with Stu on the dislike of zealotry. Generally the Gatekeepers of the Craft and the people that are most argumentative about playing "wrong" tend to be 1st Ed DMG quoters. I'm not saying that if you quote the DMG and worship Gygax that you are a Gatekeeper, but a high percentage of Gatekeepers absolutely do.
What I also don't like is that if you push back against the zealots, you automatically hate Gygax and/or D&D. They spoil for a fight or an excuse to reiterate why they are 100% right(backed up by Gygax quotes) and those that oppose them are 100% wrong.
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 16, 2013 12:17:59 GMT -8
PPS: Interesting how time time sours how most designers are considered . . . once upon a time Monte Cook was the resurrected christ savior of RPG's. Maybe it's less about the designers and speaks more of the nature of this audience - we make them and then we break them just as soon as some other fresh faced designer steps out of a nearby alleyway flashes leg and whispers the promise of sweet nothings in our ears . . Well, hello Mr. Bass Player Does that mean sloppy seconds after Arneson/Gygax/Cook/Jackson/The Guy who wrote FATAL . . .? Aaron
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