D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on Aug 16, 2013 12:26:34 GMT -8
Does that mean sloppy seconds after Arneson/Gygax/Cook/Jackson/The Guy who wrote FATAL . . .? Aaron I may be fuzzy on the math but wouldn't that be 'sloppy fifths'? Damn! waaay too close to lunch to have just typed those words.
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 16, 2013 12:34:16 GMT -8
Maybe in California you were bothered. In North Georgia its vilified and persecuted. I agree with Stu on the dislike of zealotry. Generally the Gatekeepers of the Craft and the people that are most argumentative about playing "wrong" tend to be 1st Ed DMG quoters. I'm not saying that if you quote the DMG and worship Gygax that you are a Gatekeeper, but a high percentage of Gatekeepers absolutely do. What I also don't like is that if you push back against the zealots, you automatically hate Gygax and/or D&D. They spoil for a fight or an excuse to reiterate why they are 100% right(backed up by Gygax quotes) and those that oppose them are 100% wrong. I'm not a zealot or a gatekeeper - just to get that in there before anything starts. I was simply pointing out the original disconnect between question and answer. I'd also note that the Gygax zealotry can cut both ways - there are those that lay all sorts of nonsense at his feet that just either isn't true or his fault. Most of AD&D 1e nonsense comes not from Gygax but from people who have never moved on from how they played in junior high school. Now that's not wrong if it's right for your group but even with the same rule set my games after leaving high school were significantly different as I'd changed significantly as a person (or maybe it was the pot? Who knows . . . cant really remember . . . there was an awful lot of pot and Jack Daniels). We've seen two examples above 1) the blog quote that badly misquoted the DMG (as reprinted by CC for ease of reference) and 2) Tyler making an erroneous statement about selling miniatures (if it'd been Ral Partha or Citadel - fair point). So I'm going to be my usual fence sitting douchebagness and say that both sides are just as bad as each other. Seriously is either party going to kick your back door in and storm your table and say 'your playing it wrong!!!' or 'why are you using those old rules!!!' - they'd both get a swift boot up the arse from me and quickly thrown back onto the street covered in petrol and followed by a lit match. Aaron
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 16, 2013 12:43:08 GMT -8
Does that mean sloppy seconds after Arneson/Gygax/Cook/Jackson/The Guy who wrote FATAL . . .? Aaron I may be fuzzy on the math but wouldn't that be 'sloppy fifths'? Damn! waaay too close to lunch to have just typed those words. Lunch : cottage cheese vol au vent . . . Mmmmmm Aaron
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 16, 2013 12:47:50 GMT -8
Line 'em up!
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Post by mook on Aug 16, 2013 13:04:35 GMT -8
Certainly RPGs have grown light years from their inception, but it seems there should be more choices than just "I worship at the altar of Gygax, He Who Could Do No Wrong" and "that guy was a fucking filthy piece of shit more worthy of reviling than any 10 pedos."
I have a lot of respect for Gygax, Arneson, Wesley and the others there at the beginning; I get that. Others may not, and couldn't care less; I get that, too. But to actively despise them, "just because," seems oddly misplaced.
It's hard to fault someone for screwing up the very thing that exists solely because of them. It's like screaming, "Yeah, fuck that shit stain who invented beer," while knocking back a six-pack every day?
Naturally, this being the internet, and reality, YMMV.
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 16, 2013 14:14:17 GMT -8
I don't despise Gygax at all, but his words have no more authority to me than anyone else's.
Edison may have invented the light bulb, but I really don't give a shit what he thinks about how I change one or when I turn it on or off, or what I do under its light.
I would say the same thing about Steve Jackson, Steven Long, Shane Hensley, Fred Hicks, Luke Crane, all of them. Sure, if I was getting clarification on rules, these guys would absolutely be authorities. But they are no more authorities on how to have fun than anyone else.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Aug 16, 2013 14:14:40 GMT -8
I rate play according to that scale. (Exceptional, Superior, Fair, and Poor) The ratings I give affect the time required to level up (essentially the character's age because level-up training is not game play) as well as cost to level up (or the gold piece requirement for living expenses while leveling up). My ratio goes from an Exceptional 1:1 to a Poor 1:4. As Gygax emphasized by spelling it out, this is a subjective ruling or a **CENSORED** thing. It will vary from game table to game table answerable to the subjective judgment of the GM. Beware douche bag players, whatever role they play in the game. Do not play with them. This rating is applicable to the "narcoleptic sniper," "the cleric who never heals" and the "fighter who wanted to be a lumberjack and cowers behind the wizard." This would be about role/function. I would not penalize players based on character's personality (pages 100 & 101), however, cowards who let down the other players should not adventure is my belief. My experience suggests these are characters best played by douche bags or the terribly inexperienced. Certainly players at my table who engage in such things lack a grasp of the game I play: ergo sum these are not players who play to have any social contact with others. The rating system, if nothing else, clarifies my position to these players. One player spent a 6-hour game fiddling with minutia. The players found a mine at the end of an adventure, which they decided to mine for cash. There was a three week period of downtime - supposed to be hand waved - while the players awaited the arrival of the local Lord for a reward. They role-played a negotiated price for the salt they would mine and agreed upon a continuance of the henchmen's pay while they worked the mine along side the players. At this point, we jump three weeks; I report nothing unusual happens; everyone updates their money resource; and the next scene is an audience with the Lord. At that point, it seems, the Lord reveals he is in deeper shit than the players have just inadvertently cleared up for him. And the game continues. The words, and time passes, left my lips. Six hours later, the table of players and I were upset with the player stalling out the game by trying to catch me in faulty math. I said: you get what you get. We move on. To be clear, I had to say this and variations of this several times. The player scored Poor for that session. And the player had been consistently scoring Poor. The result is that he would take 4 times longer to level up than everyone else and require 4 times more gold to do it. This would be a problem for that player, built into the mechanics, in the long game. This reveals the same mechanic as XP in combat when riding the coattails of the party. Players have to participate to gain XP. So while the players can directly act upon the other player, freely speaking their frustrations, I have the game's mechanics as the system. If I apply the mechanic fairly, even though the mechanic is subjective, then I need not be heavy handed or railroady with the player. The only thing worse than a player floundering about, in my opinion, it is a robot cow towing to whatever he things the GM wants. I GM to be surprised by players not to woodenly go through the motions. I prefer to let the group dynamic work itself out between the other players/characters; which is a simulation of what the characters would do amongst themselves. Kainguru /Aaron is right. I quoted the source material the discussion based itself on for ease of reference. In my opinion, knowing that Desktop Publishing was not available in 1979, I believe the ALL CAPS was not so much a Guy Ritchie moment to beat the reader with a rubber dildo as it was to draw attention and emphasis to the importance of time keeping in AD&D 1e. Gygax used ALL CAPS in other places that concerned itself with game balance. WotC later used the method of repeating dire warnings to do emphasis, which gave a different impression than the original intention of the game system being one DM equal to another.” This last emphasis means we were all doing it right, without the need for a blessing from Gygax. We are all The Authority at our table.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Aug 16, 2013 14:18:38 GMT -8
I don't despise Gygax at all, but his words have no more authority to me than anyone else's. Edison may have invented the light bulb, but I really don't give a shit what he thinks about how I change one or when I turn it on or off, or what I do under its light. I would say the same thing about Steve Jackson, Steven Long, Shane Hensley, Fred Hicks, Luke Crane, all of them. Sure, if I was getting clarification on rules, these guys would absolutely be authorities. But they are no more authorities on how to have fun than anyone else. stu, you have expressed Gary's attitude. He did not know why people would call him up, often times calling his home long distance, to seek a rules clarification. Your GURPS is just as good as Steve Jackson's GURPS. Make your ruling - knowing your game and your players better than Steve Jackson. Gary is on record as saying even he did not play AD&D according to AD&D's published rules (in Shared Fantasy).
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andreasdavour
Patron (Supporter)
Posts: 257
Preferred Game Systems: M0, Savage Worlds, Over the Edge, Warhammer FRP 1st ed.
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Currently Running: Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate
Favorite Species of Monkey: Llama
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Post by andreasdavour on Aug 16, 2013 23:51:00 GMT -8
And I find it ironic, in a hobby that was persecuted by religious zealots, that we quote from the 1E DMG as if we were reciting bible verses. Yeah, isn't that interesting? I find it both horrifying and fascinating.
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maxinstuff
Supporter
Posts: 1,939
Preferred Game Systems: DCC RPG, Shadowrun 5e, Savage Worlds, GURPS 4e, HERO 6e, Mongoose Traveller
Favorite Species of Monkey: Proboscis
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Post by maxinstuff on Aug 17, 2013 3:31:16 GMT -8
Whatever cunts.
*masturbates furiously into a 0 edition box*
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 17, 2013 7:04:05 GMT -8
Whatever cunts. *masturbates furiously into a 0 edition box* So that's the soggy Sao edition then? Aaron
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on Aug 17, 2013 7:55:52 GMT -8
Whatever cunts. *masturbates furiously into a 0 edition box* So that's the soggy Sao edition then? Aaron If I remember correctly there was a shortage of polyhedral dice and that was the suggested randomizer.... No crit success/failure there...nope.
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dnddad
Journeyman Douchebag
They're bullywugs aren't they Pat...
Posts: 200
Preferred Game Systems: WEG D6 Star Wars, Shadowrun 2nd, Battletech 3rd, Mechwarrior 2nd, AD&D 2nd, AFMBE rev, Savage Worlds Deluxe, Usagi Yojimbo, Marvel Super Heroes Advanced
Currently Playing: Frostgrave & Boltaction
Currently Running: from my problems
Favorite Species of Monkey: Spong
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Post by dnddad on Aug 19, 2013 5:21:27 GMT -8
Also, I call bullshit on DnD Dad and Stu Venable's claim that Illinois is the sweatiest place on Earth. Come try a Japanese summer on for size. I only know what I've experienced. I'll be happy to take donations to fly me out there so I can change my viewpoint.
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dnddad
Journeyman Douchebag
They're bullywugs aren't they Pat...
Posts: 200
Preferred Game Systems: WEG D6 Star Wars, Shadowrun 2nd, Battletech 3rd, Mechwarrior 2nd, AD&D 2nd, AFMBE rev, Savage Worlds Deluxe, Usagi Yojimbo, Marvel Super Heroes Advanced
Currently Playing: Frostgrave & Boltaction
Currently Running: from my problems
Favorite Species of Monkey: Spong
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Post by dnddad on Aug 19, 2013 8:03:14 GMT -8
Also, I love the reactions to Pat. You guys got his card down flat!
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Nolinquisitor
Journeyman Douchebag
Next Project: BrigadeCon, RPGS 2 Your Science Fantasy Toolkit Supersetting
Posts: 162
Preferred Game Systems: GURPS, M&M, 7th Sea, Cypher System
Currently Playing: Playing is for the weak.
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Favorite Species of Monkey: Dr. Zaius
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Post by Nolinquisitor on Aug 19, 2013 10:33:22 GMT -8
I was re-listening this episode and HeavyMetalJess plea for a mechanical support for a trial.
My first thought was she needed rules to support the social combat.
I instantly thought about the trial rules of Mutants & Masterminds - Mastermind's Manual (chapter 9). They are d20-ish so they could be used with some minor tweaks.
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