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Post by ayslyn on Aug 26, 2013 15:52:44 GMT -8
I want more stuff published to play. The only way to guarantee that is to get more people playing the games. JiB No. The only way to guarantee that is to buy the stuff that comes out. Businesses listen to your wallet, not your Fun. You want more of a particular style, support it and buy it. As for the whole "you like a hobby so...." thing, you don't see baseball fans trying to convince people to watch baseball. And you don't expect them to do that. You expect them to spend money to keep baseball profitable so that it will be around. That's the "responsibility" that the consumer has.
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merryprankster
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 243
Favorite Species of Monkey: Howler
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Post by merryprankster on Aug 26, 2013 16:35:21 GMT -8
Umm....so how did the baseball fan see his/her first game? Someone somewhere had to expose the baseball fan at some point. People are not born with an instinctive appreciation for baseball (as far as I know, at least).
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sbloyd
Supporter
WHAT! A human in a Precursor service vehicle?!
Posts: 2,762
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller; Dresden; Mage
Favorite Species of Monkey: Goddamnit, Curious George is a CHIMP not a monkey! Stop teaching my daughter improper classification!
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Post by sbloyd on Aug 26, 2013 16:44:51 GMT -8
My wife convinced me to go see our local team several times, and to drive up to Houston to see the Dodgers, so... Yes, I do see baseball fans trying to get me to watch baseball. Me, I like the old World of Darkness Mage game, which is out of print (but available on drivethru, and has a kickstarter for new 20th anniversary rules); very likely the l way I'll ever get to play is to try and convince some folks to try it. Fans of a twenty year old game aren't going to just show up and try to beat down my door.
That's why I wanna run a session for jackercon2.
Yes, voting with your wallet is something you should do. But, considering how small and ow fractured the rpg market is, that isn't necessarily anything remotely like a guarantee. You've got a better chance of keeping your favorite rpg writer in business by getting more folks to buy their product.
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 26, 2013 21:05:59 GMT -8
It's one of the problems with this hobby. Everyone doesn't need all the specialized equipment. So, even if you're bringing new people into the hobby, not all of them are buying stuff. Some won't buy anything. So, the game companies can't really count or cater to them.
So, the only real thing you (generic) can do is buy the product you like. Hopefully there's enough people out there that feel the same...
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SirGuido
Supporter
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Posts: 2,127
Preferred Game Systems: L5R, Traveller, Fate Accelerated, Masks
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Favorite Species of Monkey: Anything in a Cage.
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Post by SirGuido on Aug 27, 2013 4:25:52 GMT -8
The number one problem with roleplaying as a social construct is the stigma associated with it, be that the gamer funk issue or the social awkwardness issue. If people don't make the effort to change that stigma, we will always remain the stinky basement dwelling fatbeards as far as the world at large is concerned and the hobby will either die, or turn so niche that nobody remembers it.
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Post by rickno7 on Aug 27, 2013 7:27:51 GMT -8
If you're one of the people that says "its not our responsibility" you pretty much give up your "right to bitch" card when it comes to the crowds you see at the WOTC forums and random FLGS's. WOTC and other companies are marketing towards a certain demographic, and many times its the obsessive rules lawyers that battle mat everything. Why? Because they HAVE to buy the newest splat book, or they aren't competitive. They need to buy the official miniatures because they're made for the battlemat!
You want more decent people to play with? Well you better get your ass out on the street and find them, and bring them into the hobby, because the majority of money for marketing is not targeted toward them.
Bitching and complaining is one thing, especially on the internet, but if you are not providing an answer to your complaints, well then you're just being a child. Anyone in a position of responsibility has to put up with people coming in and complaining, but almost none of them have solutions when you say "ok, now how do we fix it?". The complainers don't think that far ahead.
Email after email has "there are no good players around here" and not just on this podcast. Do you expect good people to magically get interested in the game and just instinctively know how to do everything? Do you think such people are going to want to play with people that have an "i don't care" attitude? All the work they do and you want to come in and just waltz over and take advantage of their hard work?
There is not a single hobby that gets by without members bringing in new members to the fold. It is rare that hobbies have corporate sponsorship. Most of the time corporate sponsorship gets things SO wrong. I don't see model trains being advertised on TV. If they get mentioned at all, its a paper ad for the Christmas Tree toy train. There is no Garden Inc. that promotes and works with all Gardening supply stores to make sure Gardening continues. Coca-Cola memorabilia collectors. Sneaker collectors. When Nike started getting in on the collector sneaker craze, all they did was create special editions in mass numbers, but frontload the price due to its collectability.
We have an added complication.
The flagship of our hobby has turned their game into a miniature war game for the last almost decade, something many of us see as distinctly "not our hobby". We have a whole gamer generation of people that only know 4th Ed D&D, who think playing without a battlemat breaks the game utterly. Playing that way is not "wrong", but if you do not enjoy that aspect, you better start creating new players that like it the way you like it, because no corporation is going to do that.
Its player made podcasts such as this one that is getting the evangelizing out to the masses. Have you seen G+ or Roll20 advertised on TV or in magazines as a new way to play with quality people? No. It is word of mouth and efforts by people such as D20pints that is growing not only the audience here at Happy Jacks, but also our hobby.
I honestly don't understand the "no, I'm not going to grow the hobby" people. What do you do, exactly, to play your game? Hope a GM shows up and wants apathetic players? Are you a good enough GM that players just flock to you? I don't know a GM in real life that hasn't brought at least 1 new player into the hobby, hell that's half my gaming time as a GM.
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on Aug 27, 2013 8:12:29 GMT -8
Wow RickNo7. That. Shit. Was. Beautiful. Really damn fine post sir! They ought to blow that post up to size 42 font and hang it at SeptemberCon...Let 'em know where we stand. Damn fine post. I really love this place.
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SirGuido
Supporter
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Favorite Species of Monkey: Anything in a Cage.
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Post by SirGuido on Aug 27, 2013 10:28:24 GMT -8
Seriously, if you love something you should want other people to love it too. Thats just bottom line. If you're a normal person that means exposing other people to it in some way. I can't even begin to count the number of people I have gotten into tabletop gaming or taught new games or gotten into my FLGS. It doesn't take a lot of time or effort but each person YOU expose it to has the potential to expose the hobby to someone else and so and and so on ad infinitum. The only way the model doesn't work is if you get someone who is either a person who hates games period, or a lazy person who would rather whine than help.
Put on your big girl panties and DO SOMETHING. Start a game at the local library, invite a friend over who has never gamed before, go to your FLGS and offer to run a game of your favorite system, run a game at JackerCon, hand out flyers and stickers at GenCon(I did this the last two years), get a tshirt printed(did that this year), buy someone a Beginner Box... just SOMETHING.
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addicted2aa
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 37
Preferred Game Systems: EP, ORE, and Savage Worlds.
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Post by addicted2aa on Aug 27, 2013 12:37:05 GMT -8
Already had long posts on why it's our responsibility in the other thread. About the WOTC statistics factoid, I'm fairly certain Ryan Dancy addressed how they got that number in the first interview FTB did. www.feartheboot.com/ftb/index.php/archives/155 Too lazy to listen through it, but it's there if anyone cares to find out more of how WOTC tried to get accurate consumer data for our market space. jazzisblues, You were advocating people Role playing their characters in combat and concluded your point with one of your players died because of it. And then you offered nothing to make that sounds enjoyable. I assume because of the bend of this podcast, most your players are strong narrative types who would find a character appropriate death awesome, but I'm willing to bet most players don't feel that way. Even good Role Players who create interesting character, play them well, love exploring their flaws, might be more than a tad turned off at the idea of dying in a routine encounter because they made a sup optimal tactical choice to play their character. And I think that, more than anything, tends to be why people don't RP in combat. I have a solution to this though, which you probably already implemented by knowing your players. Stolen from numerous podcast and blogs, discuss what you want out the game before playing. If the players don't want to die, than make sure you don't kill them when they make poor tactical choices in character. If the players are ok with death, as long as its meaningful, avoid killing them when they act stupid, until it makes a great moment. If they want a fairly realistic game with lots of real threat, feel free to kill them whenever they make poor choices. If they want Game of Thrones, Hamlet, or the fall of the Roman empire; everybody dies, than kill them regardless of the choices they make. By making sure you're all on the same page about death and consequences of defeat, it frees players up more to act in character. They no longer will feel like they have to do everything they possibly can to protect their toy, cause they know it will only break at times when they are ok with it.
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on Aug 27, 2013 13:11:29 GMT -8
Along the lines of hard data....roll20 just announced 250k worth of users. That's pretty good...isn't it. :0?
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 27, 2013 13:31:05 GMT -8
Seriously, if you love something you should want other people to love it too. Thats just bottom line. No. I understand that people have different tastes, and my ego is solid enough to allow others to have different opinions than mine. I don't like watching most sports on television. I expect people to respect that, and not hound me, trying to drag me over to their house to watch whatever. I think that pineapple on a pizza is revolting. You enjoy it? Then rock that fruity pizza, and God bless ya. Just don't expect me to have a slice. NORMAL people understand this and generally respect that others will have different tastes than them. Don't tell me that I'm not normal because I respect others opinions. I mean, I'm definitely NOT normal.... It's just that isn't the reason why. Also, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that people shouldn't talk about it or invite new people to give it a try. If you think someone might enjoy it, sure, throw 'em an invite. But this (frankly, freakish) idea that we need to be on street corners, standing behind a pulpit, preaching to the unwashed (or would this be the washed?) masses about the virtues of our hobby is silly. Is it a good thing to introduce new people to the hobby? Sure. Are you some evil, child sacrificing monster if you don't? Well, not necessarily.... I suppose that depends on what happens at your demonic rituals. Me, I find goats easier to procure....
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addicted2aa
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 37
Preferred Game Systems: EP, ORE, and Savage Worlds.
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Post by addicted2aa on Aug 27, 2013 13:38:22 GMT -8
Also, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that people shouldn't talk about it or invite new people to give it a try. If you think someone might enjoy it, sure, throw 'em an invite. But this (frankly, freakish) idea that we need to be on street corners, standing behind a pulpit, preaching to the unwashed (or would this be the washed?) masses about the virtues of our hobby is silly. Is it a good thing to introduce new people to the hobby? Sure. Are you some evil, child sacrificing monster if you don't? Well, not necessarily.... I suppose that depends on what happens at your demonic rituals. Me, I find goats easier to procure.... See I think you're missing that no one said anything even resembling the hyperbole you're using. We're saying it's a responsibility, but no one said it's a particular important one. It's not a moral imperative. It's a simple responsibility, similar to not littering or tipping your waiter. You don't have to do it. Many people don't. They aren't even particularly bad people if they aren't. They are just failing to do a small part to make the hobby better. They could be doing loads of other things to make the hobby better or even more importantly doing things to make the world better. But that doesn't mean you don't also have a small responsibility to do this thing.
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Post by jazzisblues on Aug 27, 2013 14:00:09 GMT -8
Already had long posts on why it's our responsibility in the other thread. About the WOTC statistics factoid, I'm fairly certain Ryan Dancy addressed how they got that number in the first interview FTB did. www.feartheboot.com/ftb/index.php/archives/155 Too lazy to listen through it, but it's there if anyone cares to find out more of how WOTC tried to get accurate consumer data for our market space. jazzisblues, You were advocating people Role playing their characters in combat and concluded your point with one of your players died because of it. And then you offered nothing to make that sounds enjoyable. I assume because of the bend of this podcast, most your players are strong narrative types who would find a character appropriate death awesome, but I'm willing to bet most players don't feel that way. Even good Role Players who create interesting character, play them well, love exploring their flaws, might be more than a tad turned off at the idea of dying in a routine encounter because they made a sup optimal tactical choice to play their character. And I think that, more than anything, tends to be why people don't RP in combat. I have a solution to this though, which you probably already implemented by knowing your players. Stolen from numerous podcast and blogs, discuss what you want out the game before playing. If the players don't want to die, than make sure you don't kill them when they make poor tactical choices in character. If the players are ok with death, as long as its meaningful, avoid killing them when they act stupid, until it makes a great moment. If they want a fairly realistic game with lots of real threat, feel free to kill them whenever they make poor choices. If they want Game of Thrones, Hamlet, or the fall of the Roman empire; everybody dies, than kill them regardless of the choices they make. By making sure you're all on the same page about death and consequences of defeat, it frees players up more to act in character. They no longer will feel like they have to do everything they possibly can to protect their toy, cause they know it will only break at times when they are ok with it. A character dying is traumatic, or at least it had better be if I'm doing my job properly. Interestingly the player of the character that died was not overly traumatized by his death, but his compatriots were. Let me elaborate a bit. There are six characters in this game. When things got ugly four of them dove for cover (totally in character and exactly what the character would do. I applaud). I mentioned the two characters that did not, not because they are "better roleplayers" that's not my point. My point was simply that they both made choices that were what their characters would do to the detriment of their own character. We played the following session on Friday and the resulting actions on the part of his compatriots was wide ranging and very heartfelt. The character's death will likely fuel some very violent retribution on the part of the player characters when they catch the villain behind all that's going on. I agree it's good to be on the same page with everyone about how deadly a game is going to be. This is the first time a character has died in this campaign and that's after more than a year of playing twice a month or so. Personally I think the threat of character death should be ever present, but rare enough to be noteworthy and meaningful. Cheers, JiB
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SirGuido
Supporter
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Posts: 2,127
Preferred Game Systems: L5R, Traveller, Fate Accelerated, Masks
Currently Playing: Nothing.
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Favorite Species of Monkey: Anything in a Cage.
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Post by SirGuido on Aug 27, 2013 14:05:38 GMT -8
Seriously, if you love something you should want other people to love it too. Thats just bottom line. No. I understand that people have different tastes, and my ego is solid enough to allow others to have different opinions than mine. I don't like watching most sports on television. I expect people to respect that, and not hound me, trying to drag me over to their house to watch whatever. I think that pineapple on a pizza is revolting. You enjoy it? Then rock that fruity pizza, and God bless ya. Just don't expect me to have a slice. NORMAL people understand this and generally respect that others will have different tastes than them. Don't tell me that I'm not normal because I respect others opinions. I mean, I'm definitely NOT normal.... It's just that isn't the reason why. Also, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that people shouldn't talk about it or invite new people to give it a try. If you think someone might enjoy it, sure, throw 'em an invite. But this (frankly, freakish) idea that we need to be on street corners, standing behind a pulpit, preaching to the unwashed (or would this be the washed?) masses about the virtues of our hobby is silly. Is it a good thing to introduce new people to the hobby? Sure. Are you some evil, child sacrificing monster if you don't? Well, not necessarily.... I suppose that depends on what happens at your demonic rituals. Me, I find goats easier to procure.... Ok, now you're just being pedantic. I in no way inferred that you shouldn't respect other people's opinions. What I DID infer is that you should shop around the idea to other people. That is all I said, and I'm quite sure that was clear.
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on Aug 27, 2013 14:18:13 GMT -8
Yay!! Growing the hobby with kindling and kerosene! Where's that Aussie at ?
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