HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
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Post by HyveMynd on Feb 25, 2016 15:39:05 GMT -8
You are raising valid points joecrak, and I'll go discuss this more in the PbtA Games subforum if you want. I think joecrak summed it up nicely in his previous post Probie Tim. I feel that "hack" has a very broad meaning, as it covers everything from minor changes all the way to a completely new game. As he said, all the PbtA games ( Dungeon World, World Wide Wrestling, Monster of the Week, The Warren, Night Witches, The Sprawl, etc.) are hacks of Apocalypse World, but they are all very different from each other. There are similarities between them though, and if you know how to play one, you'll be familiar with how the others work. I think one of the central elements that link all the PbtA games together as a family are "moves"; little rule chunks that are triggered by in-game events. They are often presented as "if/then" statements. "When you attack an enemy in melee...", "When you open your brain to the psychic maelstrom...", "When you attempt your signature move...", "When you cast a spell..." Things like that. They are very often worded as fictional triggers that require the player to have their character act in a specific way. That is why I've found PbtA games to be some of the best games to encourage role playing, as the rules themselves actually force the player to do so. "To do it, you have to do it" is a PbtA mantra; if you want the mechanical effect, you have to narrate your character taking the appropriate action. Another similarity is player choice. Many results have the players choosing the outcome, often from a list of possible options. For example: "Well, you bungled your casting roll. Do you want to lose the spell, attract attention to yourself, or make future spell casting more difficult?" The choices the players have to choose between can be bad, especially if they rolled low, but the game is still saying "Which of these things do you think would be most interesting right now?" I feel this gives the players much more power to shape the story than some other games I've played. It also takes the pressure of decision making off of the GM sometimes, as well as allowing the story to move in completely unexpected ways. I love that.
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Post by joecrak on Feb 25, 2016 16:23:00 GMT -8
You are raising valid points joecrak, and I'll go discuss this more in the PbtA Games subforum if you want. I think joecrak summed it up nicely in his previous post Probie Tim. I feel that "hack" has a very broad meaning, as it covers everything from minor changes all the way to a completely new game. As he said, all the PbtA games ( Dungeon World, World Wide Wrestling, Monster of the Week, The Warren, Night Witches, The Sprawl, etc.) are hacks of Apocalypse World, but they are all very different from each other. There are similarities between them though, and if you know how to play one, you'll be familiar with how the others work. I think one of the central elements that link all the PbtA games together as a family are "moves"; little rule chunks that are triggered by in-game events. They are often presented as "if/then" statements. "When you attack an enemy in melee...", "When you open your brain to the psychic maelstrom...", "When you attempt your signature move...", "When you cast a spell..." Things like that. They are very often worded as fictional triggers that require the player to have their character act in a specific way. That is why I've found PbtA games to be some of the best games to encourage role playing, as the rules themselves actually force the player to do so. "To do it, you have to do it" is a PbtA mantra; if you want the mechanical effect, you have to narrate your character taking the appropriate action. Another similarity is player choice. Many results have the players choosing the outcome, often from a list of possible options. For example: "Well, you bungled your casting roll. Do you want to lose the spell, attract attention to yourself, or make future spell casting more difficult?" The choices the players have to choose between can be bad, especially if they rolled low, but the game is still saying "Which of these things do you think would be most interesting right now?" I feel this gives the players much more power to shape the story than some other games I've played. It also takes the pressure of decision making off of the GM sometimes, as well as allowing the story to move in completely unexpected ways. I love that. I'm always game to discussing these things.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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HJRP 1611
Feb 26, 2016 10:11:59 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by fredrix on Feb 26, 2016 10:11:59 GMT -8
What is this? The "Apocalypse Engine Soggy Biscuit Club"? Back to topics that had more time in the actual programme - on Kickstarter; (TLDR: The future of RPGs is here, and it is Kickstarter) I don't agree with Stu. Kickstarter is a good thing. But even if it ain't, you can't put the genie back in the box. Consider this: - The FLGS is dying, and in those that survive, the RPG section gets ever smaller. Let's face it, RPGs never made much business sense. One book sale to one person could give five people hours and hours, years and years, hell decades of fun, without ever requing another purchase. FLGS's that survive make their money on collectables, figures, cards, x-wing miniatures, dice, expandable board games etc - RPGs never successfully broke into the book store distribution market. - no-one ever got rich making RPGs. It's niche, and every game that isn't D&D is a niche of a niche of a niche (I'm looking at you especially AW Hacks). - even D&D, backed by the largest toy and game producer in the world is struggling, it seems. - and yet, it feels to me that we are living in a Golden Age of RPGs. I have on my physical and virtual shelves, more games than I could possibly ever play. - which is cool, but with fewer and fewer FLGS, how do these games get visibility in the market? The web is all very well, but with an almost infinite number of review sites, and only one dominant PDF storefront, how can any new game itself under the eyeballs of a Critical Mass of gamers, vs the "behemoths" of our "industry"? Right now, Kickstarter is how. It doesn't just fund game production, it creates buzz around a game. It gets people in clubs/groups talking about games in a way I don't recall since the early (read Good) days of White Dwarf. Right now, one of my clubs is ALL about 7th Sea, which I totally ignored when the first edition came out. I've agreed to run the QuickStart, and I may even have to back it (still debating that). (Consider this too - check out that Kult KS that's just started. The reward levels are differen, more exclusive versions of the book binding. These guys have realised that what the the mainstream publishing industry have yet to grok. But in twenty years or less all books will be sold this way, mark my words.) No-one needs to buy off Kickstarter, but if they want to don't give them a hard time. And don't give companies like Goodman games a hard time either, for Kickstarting a reprint. If I were them, I wouldn't want all my hard earned profit ending up wasted on a reprint run for which I had to make an educated guess on sales. Costing me warehouse rent while I try to sell them one by one.
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andreasdavour
Patron (Supporter)
Posts: 257
Preferred Game Systems: M0, Savage Worlds, Over the Edge, Warhammer FRP 1st ed.
Currently Playing: None
Currently Running: Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate
Favorite Species of Monkey: Llama
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Post by andreasdavour on Feb 26, 2016 11:44:00 GMT -8
Kickstarters, eh? I chipped in my warning in a recent episode for Kickstarter creators to avoid, and to support. I still wish we had more "votes of confidence" like that out there to support an informed opinion on whom to back. stu, I think the key to get how kickstarters work in this new economy is that unless you crowdfund, most games would never see the light of day. Sad but true. You could wish the revenue from the first printing selling out would fund the next printing, but most games cost very little to buy compared to what they cost to produce. Combine that with the fact that 85% of all individuals running game companies are a total train wreck when it comes to understanding business and basic economy! I'd take business advice from maybe three individuals in the business... Chaosium is an interesting case like that. They ran two extremely successful kickstarters, and after trying to fulfil the first one and stumbling the new owners found the company almost out of money...
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andreasdavour
Patron (Supporter)
Posts: 257
Preferred Game Systems: M0, Savage Worlds, Over the Edge, Warhammer FRP 1st ed.
Currently Playing: None
Currently Running: Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate
Favorite Species of Monkey: Llama
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Post by andreasdavour on Feb 26, 2016 11:47:41 GMT -8
Also stu, why would you go to Spotify? They have a track record of providing original content producers peanuts, keep the data to themselves and using their position in the ecosystem to bully other providers and content creators. Personally I love the music, and have become very fond of the Boggards and even bought some CDs!
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andreasdavour
Patron (Supporter)
Posts: 257
Preferred Game Systems: M0, Savage Worlds, Over the Edge, Warhammer FRP 1st ed.
Currently Playing: None
Currently Running: Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate
Favorite Species of Monkey: Llama
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Post by andreasdavour on Feb 26, 2016 11:51:41 GMT -8
I do agree whole heatedly with this statement however, and that goes for any game, not just PbtA stuff. tremulus was a fucking train wreck of a game. It read like the author had no idea how a PbtA game worked and was just jumping on the rising tide of popularity to make a buck. That is only Kickstarter I ever regret backing so far, and it delivered on time. Hmmm. So it's not that great, eh? I have two PbtA games and have been reading and re-reading tremulus trying to understand how it works, and have failed. I don't think I regret backing it, as it game me a good impression of what to expect from the author. I would probably not mind backing him again if he produced something more understandable.
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Post by joecrak on Feb 26, 2016 13:11:48 GMT -8
I do agree whole heatedly with this statement however, and that goes for any game, not just PbtA stuff. tremulus was a fucking train wreck of a game. It read like the author had no idea how a PbtA game worked and was just jumping on the rising tide of popularity to make a buck. That is only Kickstarter I ever regret backing so far, and it delivered on time. Hmmm. So it's not that great, eh? I have two PbtA games and have been reading and re-reading tremulus trying to understand how it works, and have failed. I don't think I regret backing it, as it game me a good impression of what to expect from the author. I would probably not mind backing him again if he produced something more understandable. It's very not good. A lot of the basic moves seem to be copy and pastes of AW. Plus the fact that there's 46 playbooks, when the basic moves aren't even that well written, is a huge problem, if you aren't going to put that much effort into the core of the game, what guarantee is there for all of those playbooks?
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HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
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Post by HyveMynd on Feb 26, 2016 15:36:26 GMT -8
I have two PbtA games and have been reading and re-reading tremulus trying to understand how it works, and have failed. Don't bother. tremulus is an unreadable mess that was written by someone who does not understand how Powered by the Apocalypse games work. In addition to the points joecrak raised, there are multiple instances of the same thing being called by different names in different places, and the same moves being worded differently in different places. If you're trying to understand how a PbtA game works, tremulus is the absolute worse book you could be reading. Whatever that other game you have is, it will be head and shoulders about tremulus. Toss that hot mess of a book into the wood-chipper as it deserves.
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Post by ayslyn on Feb 26, 2016 21:36:39 GMT -8
The FLGS is dying, and in those that survive, the RPG section gets ever smaller. I disagree. Some are, certainly. Mostly because they are refusing to change with the times. Certainly things have evolved, and the FLGS needs to evolve with it. Our local store is doing an incredible amount of business, and the number of RPG games that are being played in the store (and I do me IN the store) is staggering. And at them, I see a core book in front of all the players, so.... Also, their RPG section is growing as well. I picked up my copy of The Dracula Dossier from him just a couple of weeks ago. Unfortunately someone else snagged their copy of Dracula Unredacted, so I'll need to order that from them, but... So, I think it's not so much that the FLGS is untenable, and more that some store owners either won't or don't want to change.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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HJRP 1611
Feb 26, 2016 23:02:27 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by fredrix on Feb 26, 2016 23:02:27 GMT -8
The FLGS is dying, and in those that survive, the RPG section gets ever smaller. I disagree. Some are, certainly. Mostly because they are refusing to change with the times. Certainly things have evolved, and the FLGS needs to evolve with it. Our local store is doing an incredible amount of business, and the number of RPG games that are being played in the store (and I do me IN the store) is staggering. And at them, I see a core book in front of all the players, so.... Also, their RPG section is growing as well. I picked up my copy of The Dracula Dossier from him just a couple of weeks ago. Unfortunately someone else snagged their copy of Dracula Unredacted, so I'll need to order that from them, but... So, I think it's not so much that the FLGS is untenable, and more that some store owners either won't or don't want to change. I don't think we disagree that much. I agree that stores can survive, especially through in-store gaming and the like. They are not untenable. But (here in the UK, at least) there used to be a FLGS in every town. Now, not so much. And those around me, Orc's Nest and the Games Shop (which used to be Esdevium) are now mostly board games. Also, the Dracula Dossier is brilliant isn't it? I've only used it so far to enhance The Zalozhny Quartet, but it got me right out of a hole when the players totally sidewaysed the campaign in the final act!
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andreasdavour
Patron (Supporter)
Posts: 257
Preferred Game Systems: M0, Savage Worlds, Over the Edge, Warhammer FRP 1st ed.
Currently Playing: None
Currently Running: Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate
Favorite Species of Monkey: Llama
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Post by andreasdavour on Feb 27, 2016 10:15:54 GMT -8
I have two PbtA games and have been reading and re-reading tremulus trying to understand how it works, and have failed. Don't bother. tremulus is an unreadable mess that was written by someone who does not understand how Powered by the Apocalypse games work. In addition to the points joecrak raised, there are multiple instances of the same thing being called by different names in different places, and the same moves being worded differently in different places. If you're trying to understand how a PbtA game works, tremulus is the absolute worse book you could be reading. Whatever that other game you have is, it will be head and shoulders about tremulus. Toss that hot mess of a book into the wood-chipper as it deserves. I guess it's best ignored, yes. I do own Legacy as well, and I think it's better. at least it doesn't come across as confused.
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Post by ayslyn on Feb 27, 2016 15:56:01 GMT -8
I disagree. Some are, certainly. Mostly because they are refusing to change with the times. Certainly things have evolved, and the FLGS needs to evolve with it. Our local store is doing an incredible amount of business, and the number of RPG games that are being played in the store (and I do me IN the store) is staggering. And at them, I see a core book in front of all the players, so.... Also, their RPG section is growing as well. I picked up my copy of The Dracula Dossier from him just a couple of weeks ago. Unfortunately someone else snagged their copy of Dracula Unredacted, so I'll need to order that from them, but... So, I think it's not so much that the FLGS is untenable, and more that some store owners either won't or don't want to change. I don't think we disagree that much. I agree that stores can survive, especially through in-store gaming and the like. They are not untenable. But (here in the UK, at least) there used to be a FLGS in every town. Now, not so much. And those around me, Orc's Nest and the Games Shop (which used to be Esdevium) are now mostly board games. Also, the Dracula Dossier is brilliant isn't it? I've only used it so far to enhance The Zalozhny Quartet, but it got me right out of a hole when the players totally sidewaysed the campaign in the final act! I haven't actually looked inside the book yet. I managed to "con" another member in my group to run it. Which, before anyone calls foul ^.^ , entailed buying the book, describing it to my group and asking if anyone was interested in running it with my copy.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Feb 27, 2016 23:53:09 GMT -8
Were I so "conned" I'd be grateful. It has the power to make any GM seem incredibly knowledgable and well read. Are you (or should I say, is your game-mate) planning on running it in NBA? Because, frankly it can be run in almost any system, the stats make a tiny proportion of the data in the book. If one is prepared to stand up the NPCs or have a bunch of generic stats to hand and narrate the abilities mentioned then one could even get away with running it in D&D. I'm desperate to run it with one of my groups, but they are loving Fate at the moment - obviously it's a pretty easy conversion for me. (Though I do like NBA, I ran that with my other group).
If you are struggling/waiting to get Dracula Unredacted, here's a tip. I slapped it (in lovely facsimile first edition version) on the table as part of an early Intel haul in my Zalozniy Quartet campaign, and they pretty much ignored it. It's a big old book in small print and dull old Victorian language (apparently) so despite this version being stuffed with clues and campaign hooks, they could not be bothered to even leaf through it for the footnotes. So get your chum to foreshadow it as a McGuffun for a few sessions, and maybe build up its reputation for having "all the answers"....
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Post by ayslyn on Feb 28, 2016 9:00:53 GMT -8
Plan is currently to use NBA. I've been dying to get my group out of the D20 rut. They're a bunch of thespians and story-tellers who seem to think that they have to be murder hobos... I see it in the games they all run. They all tell great stories but a lot of the combat seems thrown in just for the sake of combat...
I'm taking baby steps by running Shadowrun, specifically the Lockdown scenario.
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Post by riotinferno on Mar 2, 2016 8:45:50 GMT -8
I have two PbtA games and have been reading and re-reading tremulus trying to understand how it works, and have failed. Don't bother. tremulus is an unreadable mess that was written by someone who does not understand how Powered by the Apocalypse games work. In addition to the points joecrak raised, there are multiple instances of the same thing being called by different names in different places, and the same moves being worded differently in different places. If you're trying to understand how a PbtA game works, tremulus is the absolute worse book you could be reading. Whatever that other game you have is, it will be head and shoulders about tremulus. Toss that hot mess of a book into the wood-chipper as it deserves. I'll be running my first session of tremulus tonight. I've ran 1 session of DW before (quite poorly, I felt) and only 1 of my players tonight was in that group, so the rest have no AW experience. I agree that tremulus is written pretty roughly and doesn't seem to make sense by itself. I've spent a few months reading everything I can about AW and various AW-powered games, so I think my brain tends to fill in the gaps and correct the problems in tremulus. Now, I've had problems creating Call of Cthulhu plots before, and in general, keeping the campaign running. Where I think tremulus excels is in the Ebon Eaves playset and the plot thread section. Sadly, this has nothing to do with the mechanics and probably didn't need a separate game to play use it with. I do agree that there's too many playbooks. 10 or so in the main book, and 15 more in supplements? Anyway, I'll report back later on how the session goes.
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