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Post by the0gekko0state on Dec 3, 2017 16:25:55 GMT -8
I posted in the General Section about picking up an old third edition core book. I am just getting around to reading it. But Stu and Chronovore pointed out that if I need to do Supers I should probably look towards fourth edition instead. Well now that they've said that I really am wondering about Supers. What makes it less power breaking in fourth than third? Help me understand please
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Post by chronovore on Dec 5, 2017 15:48:44 GMT -8
There was an earlier example of in the podcast, season (mumble), episode (mumble-mumble) where the ST stat was shown to breaky-break the balanced nature of GURPS.
3rd Edition starts from a premise that All Stats Are Equal, while 4th recognizes from a balance perspective that physical ST is not as valuable as IQ or DX, particularly since character builds are as-or-more skill-based than Stat-driven, and 99% of GURPS' skills are IQ or DX based. However, the super-strength-based characters like Hulk, Thor, Superman, would have to shove an inordinate amount of CPs into ST to get their specifications up as expected.
iirc, 3rd Ed. GURPS SUPERS chose to just curb-stomp their regular Character Point cost curve for stats, which was 10 pts. for the first two levels, 15 pts for the next two or three levels, then 20 pts up to the human max — and then in SUPERS it becomes 1 or 2 pts per level.
I don't know how it's handled in 4th edition. Actually, I haven't finished reading my GURPS 4th Ed. books because I've been scrabbling to wrap my head around FATE — which I think would be a better system to run a 4-color superheroics comicbook game. If you're running something like Watchmen, CROSSED, 30 Days of Night, instead, GURPS Supers might still be your best option to match flavor.
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Post by the0gekko0state on Dec 5, 2017 17:40:04 GMT -8
Hmmmm okay.
Yeah I’m hoping to run a four color style game. I have been looking at Muntants and Masterminds 3E, more than a look judging by my book shelf. Along with some other games, including Fate lol. It is one I don’t quite grasp as well. I did pick up Venture City Blues to see how it handles Supers.
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Post by chronovore on Dec 5, 2017 20:32:44 GMT -8
FATE is an odd bird, and it has taken me quite a bit of time to change my thought-model to accommodate it.
But it has its threads in its own system, so I'll avoid saying too much here.
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Post by Stu Venable on Dec 7, 2017 23:18:14 GMT -8
The design philosophy for GURPS includes a consideration about munchkinism. And that is both its weakness and its strength. It's not easy to make a break-y character in GURPS, but that makes GURPS less than suitable for a supers game, because superheroes ARE break-y. In 3rd ed, stats and skills get expensive at high levels. IIRC, the cost to take a stat from 15 to 16 is about 60 cp (maybe it was 16 to 17, it's been a while). To make a decent brick would require a 1000 cp or more. While the brick would end up with a 30 STR or so, a skills based character could buy hundreds of skill at an expert level. To balance this, (again IIRC, it's been a long time), you had to buy a super strength advantage, which made the cost of STR above 18 or 20 or so to cost 1 point per level. It was system shoehorning at its worst. The fact is, GURPS is not a good system for a supers game. 4th ed? Maybe, but I've never tried to play a supers game in 4th, so I can't say for certain. Champions (or HERO system) on the other hand was built for supers. Instead of baking anti-munchkinsim into the system, HERO relies on the GM setting limits. "Unless you're building a brick, you can't have a strength over 20." They even have a "normal character maxima" disad which sets limits to HERO's numerous stats -- so you can make a Batman like character with lots of cool gadgets (but human-like stats). If you like crunchy systems, I'd suggest taking a look at the Hero Basic Rulebook. It's a scaled down version of the whole system, but gives plenty of options for supers characters. I think there's a modern Champions book out there as well. But be warned: HERO is CRUNCHY. Every bit as much as GURPS -- maybe more so. In addition to FATE (as chronovore suggested) you might want to look at Savage Worlds. There's a supers supplement, as well as an excellent super villain book (Necessary Evil). If Kimi were reading this, she'd probably suggest Wild Talents. I've only ever run or played supers games in HERO. Back in the 80s and 90s, we were all used to lots of crunch, so HERO (which was considered crunchy even then) wasn't that bad. But combat slows to a crawl in HERO.
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Post by chronovore on Dec 7, 2017 23:30:25 GMT -8
Yeah, basic Hero System or full-on Champions are great choices, and at the same time I'm remembering the guy who tried to bring a broken build into the very first Champions game I ever played. He submitted a character to the GM who was a "good guy," but whose powers were based on a vampiric drain - but he'd also paid for a fan club of willing victims who were willing to juice him up whenever. Munchkins, as you said, the system relies on the GM setting limits, but this clown was even shouted down by the other players.
You guys had talked on the show before about a Champions game where someone came in with devastating Killing attacks or high defense armor, and the GM immediately realized that this one character would unbalance combat for all the other characters. The answer was to set a limit on the OCV/DCV so that everyone was in the same range.
This kind of consensual limitation can work in any system, as long as it's communicated clearly and the players and GM are all honest with their intent.
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Post by Probie Tim on Dec 8, 2017 6:57:26 GMT -8
If you like crunchy systems, I'd suggest taking a look at the Hero Basic Rulebook. No, seriously, if you're considering GURPS for a superhero game, look at HERO. Specifically the HERO Basic Rulebook (http://drivethrurpg.com/product/64691/HERO-System-Basic-Rulebook); it is inexpensive and pretty darned full-featured. The only problem with HERO is that the GM has to set some limits up-front; with HERO, you can create ANYTHING you want, and if you're not careful it can become quite game-breaky really quickly. But if I were going to run supers and I were looking at a crunchy, GURPS-esque experience, HERO Basic would be my choice.
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Post by the0gekko0state on Dec 8, 2017 9:52:29 GMT -8
Thank you all!
Now I do own Champions Complete would that work?
I'm not sure if I want a crunchy system or not to be honest. Just kind of weighing my options right now. I like crunch to a point and some times enjoy reading it just for fun. But when it comes time to bring it to the table I'm not sure if my group likes crunchy systems. I was going to maybe do Mutants & Masterminds 3e but character creation is a bit of a pain. Even with hero lab I find it difficult to translate what I want into a character.
I am taking another look at Savage Worlds as I do own some of the books for it. But not any supers related. I read some of Wild Talents and thought it was "interesting". Though that was some time ago.
I'm kind of half and half on Fate. I think I need to play it couple times before I game master it. Steven here on the forums has also sparked some interest in me for the Marvel Heroic Roleplaying.
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Post by Probie Tim on Dec 8, 2017 9:58:26 GMT -8
We're kind of spiraling out of GURPS territory now and into generic supers recommendations, but... based on your post above, I'd seriously take a look at ICONS Assembled. It's by Steve Kenson - he works for Green Ronin, the people who put out M&M - but this is his own game. I'm a fan; if someone said to me, "Hey, Tim, I want you to run a supers game for me tomorrow and I don't care what system we use," I would run it in ICONS Assembled.
Might want to give that a look.
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Post by the0gekko0state on Dec 8, 2017 10:04:24 GMT -8
Yeah I apologize for that.
I looked at it a bit yesterday but wasn't sure if it was any good. Could you PM me some details about it.
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Post by Probie Tim on Dec 8, 2017 10:08:46 GMT -8
No problem!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2017 0:01:48 GMT -8
Thank you all! Now I do own Champions Complete would that work? I'm not sure if I want a crunchy system or not to be honest. Just kind of weighing my options right now. I like crunch to a point and some times enjoy reading it just for fun. But when it comes time to bring it to the table I'm not sure if my group likes crunchy systems. I was going to maybe do Mutants & Masterminds 3e but character creation is a bit of a pain. Even with hero lab I find it difficult to translate what I want into a character. I am taking another look at Savage Worlds as I do own some of the books for it. But not any supers related. I read some of Wild Talents and thought it was "interesting". Though that was some time ago. I'm kind of half and half on Fate. I think I need to play it couple times before I game master it. Steven here on the forums has also sparked some interest in me for the Marvel Heroic Roleplaying. Hero is great, but a metric boatload of work. Having something like champions complete might help... but it might not. I just depends on the experiance you want to deliver. As much as I love Hero System, I would not reccomend trying to learn it to run a game. GURPS 3rd tried to keep things from becoming unbalanced, while Hero will struggle to warn you about imbalance. A simple example for you: Many skills are based on stats. The higher the stat, the more you get for buying the base level of the skill. For 50 character points (perhaps even less), you could buy enough intelligence so that you will be nearly unable to fail INT based skills. My first crack at making an android was built that way. I didn’t understand what was so bad about the build, and I wouldn’t for some time. All the above said, game balance is for players. The GM just has to make it whatever it needs to be and doesn’t have to worry about points or cost. You may not realize something will be an issue, but it likely won’t be a case of how something is bought.
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Post by Stu Venable on Dec 12, 2017 22:54:47 GMT -8
You also need to worry about intra-party balance. A PC built with a huge INT would definitely have a better default in INT-based skills than other character that actually spent points on those skills. HERO is intrinsically breaky that way. The GM definitely needs to set limits to avoid think kind of build, and a GM that fails to set limits in a HERO game will encounter all kinds of problems. Running HERO without some experience playing it (and building lots of characters) is a recipe for a failed game.
It is, however, a damn fine game for supers and pulp settings. One of the best one-shots I've ever run was a pulp game in HERO. But I also built all the characters myself, so they'd be balanced against the bad guys and the other PCs.
On the Savage Worlds front, I'd suggest picking up the Supers Companion. If you're looking for low-prep with a shallow learning curve, Savage Worlds is a fantastic choice. While there's only 5 gradients of stats and a limited pool of powers, it does allow for enough variation for a fun game. The dice/bennie mechanic is very forgiving for less-than-optimal builds, and often offers some epic and surprising results.
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Post by jonas on Dec 13, 2017 6:31:20 GMT -8
The Supers and Powers rules for GURPS gave me such cold feet the first time I saw them that I started to look for other systems and later found Savage Worlds in a shady dark alley.
I love GURPS, but I wouldn't run a supers game in it if it wasn't something lowkey as Watchmen or Kick-Ass.
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Post by the0gekko0state on Dec 13, 2017 9:51:57 GMT -8
Thank you every one for getting back to me. I think I'm going to move on from GURPS for now. But I still going to learn it as I can see using it for other things. I will take another look at Savage Worlds, I have run it using the Savage Rifts setting. I will stop here so we aren't getting away from GURPS too much.
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