|
Post by CreativeCowboy on Jul 15, 2013 10:50:25 GMT -8
Source: FeatsNo. I did not read this or waste my time. I did read the abstract. Does it need to be said that putting up a notice for a 5e game will require an ingredients list on 8.5" x 11" sheet? Just another instance of splitting the party. Being everything and nothing to no-one.
|
|
|
Post by CreativeCowboy on Jul 15, 2013 12:31:19 GMT -8
What I find so distasteful with all this rule-fudge-packing is that it takes the focus away from players and places it onto a system - which is antithetical to a social game. (It is certainly not my reactionary drum beat: **CENSORED**.) D&D (B/E & Advanced 1e), to those of us who played it in the day when that was all there was, once meant the same thing to everyone but a different experience for each.
3, 4 & apparently 5e means the reverse: D&D means different things to everyone but also a standardized experience.
A far cry from the early message of “one DM equal to another.”
It is not the point whether 5e will be a good game or not. Monopoly is a good game. But the restrictions in play and the re-focus of play experience really takes away from the social dynamic of role-playing. That design progression bothers me. Its message also complicates my recruitment of players and threatens my group if I am not sharp in the interview.
At least if I recruit for a game of Monopoly, I won’t have to interview people to find out they really want to play another iteration of the brand.
|
|
|
Post by The Northman on Jul 15, 2013 15:14:04 GMT -8
When a game hangs its hat on organized play which is open to the public, sans any connection to a regular group or location, it has to pay extra attention these things.
|
|
|
Post by Arcona on Jul 15, 2013 21:41:53 GMT -8
As usual the hate and random blah blah blah blah... CC never fails to dissapoint in the limited time I have been on these forums.
So organised feats is an issue? Having options is a problem for you?
In another thread you mention how you force -new- players to go through being mappers (how does this differ from using a battlemat? Dont you use the map for battles? If not, what is the point of the map? Only to see where hidden doors could be?) and tracking the minutia of every ration and spell component. If tracking how many bat guano piles you have in your pocket isnt game disrupting then what is?
Do you also ask them to count how many times they have been to the bathroom IC? Or if they forgot to wash their weapons of their enemies blood hence now they are rusted?
|
|
|
Post by CreativeCowboy on Jul 15, 2013 22:12:15 GMT -8
So organised feats is an issue? Having options is a problem for you? It is when these options are not organically generated within the group of players. Call centres in India also have options but no one appreciates those when they are canned responses. Well, not no-one. You do, obviously. In another thread you mention how you force -new- players to go through being mappers (how does this differ from using a battlemat? Dont you use the map for battles? If not, what is the point of the map? Only to see where hidden doors could be?) Players need to actually listen to the descriptions. Engrossment is the under valued term. This is emphasized by actively mapping – not on a passive battlemap which the GM draws. Remember, without DCs to save characters from dormant player agency, many characters can walk into the hole of death and die because a player is not paying attention to the "flavour" descriptions. I like to hand the player graph paper and take the iphone away. Again, you and I appreciate different games. and tracking the minutia of every ration and spell component. If tracking how many bat guano piles you have in your pocket isnt game disrupting then what is? That is game immersion. Sometimes players need to improvise and lacking a needed resource can make that happen. Sort of like taking away Feats but we run a circular loop here you cannot apprehend from your articulated experience. It is not about computers (or GMs) keeping track for the players but the player agency to handle their own characters. It is not about the #win but the journey *cough*munchkin*couch* A GM is not supposed to be a surrogate parent to the players. Are you sure you could pass for a tabletop role-player? I do not think you would make the cut at my table.
|
|
maxinstuff
Supporter
Posts: 1,939
Preferred Game Systems: DCC RPG, Shadowrun 5e, Savage Worlds, GURPS 4e, HERO 6e, Mongoose Traveller
Favorite Species of Monkey: Proboscis
|
Post by maxinstuff on Jul 15, 2013 22:25:35 GMT -8
*warms hands*
|
|
D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
|
Post by D.T. Pints on Jul 15, 2013 23:05:17 GMT -8
*gets out sticks and marshmallows*
|
|
|
Post by guitarspider on Jul 15, 2013 23:06:52 GMT -8
No popcorn? I'm leaving!
|
|
|
Post by Arcona on Jul 15, 2013 23:58:24 GMT -8
CC the problem is that by the time you have played a few sessions of a game tracking things like rations, torches and how many nicks your sword got becomes minutia.
Have you read any novels or fantasy books or epics dealing with such drudgery? No!!! Epic tales are about epic stuff! Even friggin Tolkien just says 'they had special elf bread... it was boring to eat it every day but they had it' and just handwaves that part!
I want to play a game, not count coppers, torches, waterskins etc unless if the game is a survival horror where getting the next meal is the adventure itself!!! So if I was playing Fallout RPG or if the game was set in Dark Sun then sure maybe on our first couple of levels this would matter...
RPGs are about immersion and sorry but noone but an accountant gets immersed in tracking down how many matches you have left in the matchbox.
As for the comment on feats... well what can I say... indeed we like different things... according to you if one of your players is an engineer and playing an illiterate barbarian he should be able to design siege weapons, traps and maybe even combustion engines and planes cause well "player knowledge" or something.
For me an illiterate barbarian from the mountains should be role-played AS AN ILLITERATE BARBARIAN!
Anyway, enjoy bashing 5e and whatever else gets you to feel empowered while the rest of us play the game we love with and without feats (that from what I read will most likely be optional like backgrounds and specialties.
Edit: Something I just thought about... you keep saying about how awesome 1e edition was because it had few rules and was customisable. Out of curiosity... what stops you from customising 3.5, 4th and 5th to whatever you like? What stops you from putting House Rules, Homebrew and all the beauty that is freedom in RPGs in these editions?
|
|
|
Post by CreativeCowboy on Jul 16, 2013 1:42:09 GMT -8
CC the problem is that by the time you have played a few sessions of a game tracking things like rations, torches and how many nicks your sword got becomes minutia.I will ignore exaggerated bullshit, in case you’re wondering why your “valid” point is ignored. Show your argument some self-respect. Have you read any novels or fantasy books or epics dealing with such drudgery? No!!! Epic tales are about epic stuff! Even friggin Tolkien just says 'they had special elf bread... it was boring to eat it every day but they had it' and just handwaves that part! GRRM. But I digress. You obviously have not watched the same books as I have read. I can name a more popular author who handled the same “drudgery” as GRRM but adroitly: the late David Eddings. There are others. Perhaps you’d like the list from the back of the AD&D 1e DMG? No. It is apparent to me from reading your statements that you want to win a battle, blasting away with button-mashing dice and prance around while doing it in an adversarial contest you call RPGs. Thus, my estimation of you is that when the game cannot satisfy your adversarial nature you will become That Guy. Part of my game bit of the game is resource management not the minutia you would misnomer it. Best stick to your Fallout and MMOs. The game [part] actually requires its players make choices, think, express agency in decisions about what to bring vis-à-vis a character encumbrance limits and how best to bring what they choose to bring. Working together players can decide to bring more than if they decide their characters will tote duplicates of everything. This player decision to work together will be a dynamic that can affect resource management at higher game levels rather than an arbitrary DM Fiat. But it rests within player agency not in GM micro-management. not count coppers, torches, waterskins etc unless if the game is a survival horror where getting the next meal is the adventure itself!!! So if I was playing Fallout RPG or if the game was set in Dark Sun then sure maybe on our first couple of levels this would matter... RPGs are about immersion and sorry but noone but an accountant gets immersed in tracking down how many matches you have left in the matchbox.As for the comment on feats... well what can I say... indeed we like different things... according to you if one of your players is an engineer and playing an illiterate barbarian he should be able to design siege weapons, traps and maybe even combustion engines and planes cause well "player knowledge" or something. Another topic? Ok. Let’s take siege weapons and your desire for an untalented toon run by a talented player to build one or more of these technological advances. Let us assume this is for use rather than as a hobby. As a hobby you can designate whatever you wish your character to do, while the other players go off adventure without you. Call me when you have it done. We can handle this by eMail away from the table. If you are in a game situation where siege weapons would be required you are forgetting one very important element at my game table: dealing with other characters. As a hobby, you can build one on your own. As an element of the current adventure, you will need other characters. A GM might even ask from where you get this skill. I would. I would also expect the back-story of this secondary profession to provide me with game adventure hooks. Your task in building a siege weapon is to convince the others that you know what you’re talking about. You, as the only player with this knowledge, have to manage the others with no guarantee the weapon will function properly. You will also have to manage the time and materials of the building as well as the progress on the project. Conan might create a siege weapon and communicate it eloquently to his barbarian brothers who then lack the skill required. Or Conan might work with experienced engineers and then face the challenge of clearly communicating his ideas. Remember, to the engineers he is still a lowly barbarian and no barbarian is going to upstage an engineer. (I will make a roll on the Reaction Table to discover if that bigotry exists – but I put it out there as a potential game challenge to show you what, it is obvious to me, you have never experienced: role-playing.) If you cannot play an illiterate and deal with all the challenges of the disadvantage, maybe the disad is not for you? But being illiterate is not equivalent to being mentally deficient. May you never discover that through personal experience. For me an illiterate barbarian from the mountains should be role-played AS AN ILLITERATE BARBARIAN! Yes. And? See above. Anyway, enjoy bashing 5e and whatever else gets you to feel empowered while the rest of us play the game we love with and without feats (that from what I read will most likely be optional like backgrounds and specialties.Edit: Something I just thought about... you keep saying about how awesome 1e edition was because it had few rules and was customisable. Out of curiosity... what stops you from customising 3.5, 4th and 5th to whatever you like? What stops you from putting House Rules, Homebrew and all the beauty that is freedom in RPGs in these editions? In a word: expectations (of the new school players). That is a big hindrance in finding a fun gaming group. This is where my “bashing” takes aim.
|
|
|
Post by CreativeCowboy on Jul 16, 2013 1:57:01 GMT -8
Pearls from Mearls "I think the designers have lost faith in the core essence of the RPG." Players. This would be the players. The core essence of the RPG is its players! - me, editorializing, pointing out what I should think is the obvious.the response is 'What the hell is that?'" he said. "I know what it is because I worked on it, but it's not even in the Player's Handbook. If you [publish] too much, that shared language, it just evaporates." Mearls. Addressing the common sense problem why 5e will fail. Then forgets himself. "D&D isn't one game, it's a range of games," said Mearls. Mearls is less dedicated to reuniting the fractured audience rather than catering to each new niche in turn. - Author summing up the interviewee, Mike Mearls. This is what we in PR refer to as staying on message and it should always come from a mission statement. This mess displays the mission behind 5e. www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9294-The-State-of-Dungeons-Dragons-Future.2
|
|
|
Post by ayslyn on Jul 16, 2013 8:25:51 GMT -8
Soooooo....
You haven't actually read the article, but you're ranting about it....
Riiiiiiiight.
And you wonder why people aren't taking you seriously.
|
|
|
Post by CreativeCowboy on Jul 16, 2013 8:31:48 GMT -8
Soooooo.... You haven't actually read the article, but you're ranting about it.... Riiiiiiiight. And you wonder why people aren't taking you seriously. Wisdom means you do not have to experience everything to avoid crap. You just have to know enough to watch where you step. I hope you'll grok that one day. Life will be easier for you then. Some people seem never get that.
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Jul 16, 2013 8:41:19 GMT -8
My air conditioner just bust and the marshmallows fizzed into charcoal in an instant . . . Aaron
|
|
D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
|
Post by D.T. Pints on Jul 16, 2013 8:43:34 GMT -8
My air conditioner just bust and the marshmallows fizzed into charcoal in an instant . . . Aaron We. May. Have. Just. Discovered..a New Energy Source!
|
|