|
Post by Houndin on Aug 20, 2013 12:54:16 GMT -8
(says he who has just agreed to play in a 4e game . . . with one caveat: no fucking DragonBorn) You might want to add in 'Or wooden robots, vampires, satyrs, shifters, or kitchen sinks' to that caveat. By the end of the run they had just about everything as a playable race. It's very Palladium.
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Aug 20, 2013 12:57:43 GMT -8
Ambassadors - that word fills me with fear and dread. Usually ambassador's are either self interested people with their own agenda that nominate themselves to be spokesperson on behalf of 'us' while generally ignoring (or more often disagreeing) with the consensus of the time; OR they are self interested people with a hidden agenda that focus on being elected as spokespersons while ignoring the wishes of those who gave them a mandate to begin with. Frequently the later, selected/elected, sort tend to be as representative of the concern they champion as quorn* is to red meat. Aaron * a vegetarian hipster hippy meat substitute that looks the dogs bollocks until you try eating it.
|
|
maxinstuff
Supporter
Posts: 1,939
Preferred Game Systems: DCC RPG, Shadowrun 5e, Savage Worlds, GURPS 4e, HERO 6e, Mongoose Traveller
Favorite Species of Monkey: Proboscis
|
Post by maxinstuff on Aug 20, 2013 15:47:49 GMT -8
I really think IF the hobby grows thats great - but there aint much I can do for that, it is largely down to game companies and how effective they are at producing games worth playing and getting them out there. I care, it just isn't my job. I could NOT disagree with you more. I think the onus for growing the hobby lands squarely on our shoulders. Its too niche for the companies to be able to do much. Most of the smaller companies cater to the audience they already have, or to the audience thats already receptive and "in the know" they don't(and can't) target the little guy who knows nothing about them. Bigger companies like Paizo can(and do) market to the little guy, but even that is very small in the scheme of things. No, the bulk of growing the hobby is up to us... the ones in the trenches. If we blow it off as someone else's burden we'll quickly find ourselves with no games to join and no books to read. I think we disagree about what the starting point of 'growing the hobby' is. I think is is new, well marketed games - and the evangelising comes afterwards, from that small group of 'core' customers. Take a video game console as an example. The base doesn't grow unless new games are coming out - when that stops the format starts its slow decline into oblivion. It doesn't matter how strongly people evangelise - there needs to be an active marketplace or people lose interest.
|
|
addicted2aa
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 37
Preferred Game Systems: EP, ORE, and Savage Worlds.
|
Post by addicted2aa on Aug 21, 2013 6:30:08 GMT -8
I don't think that the video game market is analogous. Because a video game can only give you a very small subset of experiences, the visualization and overall presentation of the game begins to look hoky, and there are visible improvements in gameplay that even the casual public is aware of, it represents a completely different type of escapism from Table Top RPGS.
While those in the hobby might know of the vast "improvements" in games since 0ed D&D, most people don't. Most casual observers might know that D&D has changed editions, or that there is now a vampire game that people play instead, but that's about it. So you can introduce a noob using pretty much any game system, and not have them throw it aside because it doesn't live up to their expectations, cause they have none. The industry doesn't need to innovate for me to sell my friends on RPGS.
Further, the graphics will never get old and we can play the same "game" for 30 years and still be doing new and exciting things in an RPG. There isn't a video game that exists today that you can say that for. You can bring people into this hobby and even if the current market stagnates, still have fun, new and interesting things to do in it. And that's without even changing system. There are currently more systems on the market than most people will ever get to play in their life times.
I also disagree about new games being a growth point for the hobby. While a somewhat big company like Pazio or Wizards may be able to start a marketing campaign, very few other companies have the capital to start that. The companies literally can't afford to lay the ground work to grow the hobby. Which means it's on the customers and the retail outlets(which usually play in multiple markets already) to try and bring new dollars into the market.
|
|
|
Post by heavymetaljess on Aug 21, 2013 15:51:24 GMT -8
Which means it's on the customers and the retail outlets (which usually play in multiple markets already) to try and bring new dollars into the market. I couldn't agree more. The Books-A-Million in my tiny home town had the roleplaying games and CCG stuff in an area with special displays, WotC cardboard cutouts, and lots of chairs so people just sitting to read would get exposure to hobby games. They also allowed people to play at the store (which we did a couple times). They didn't have competition from a local game store. They just did it so they could make money and it worked. They even had lesser known games like Mouse Guard. If you wanted to find people for a game, you hung out there and asked other people who showed up what they played. It was genius. Big box book stores seem to understand the need to promote something like games. I think it's their drive for that elusive dollar. Which is probably why our small town had a tighter gaming community than Fort Myers which has two game stores. Here they just don't try. I've written in to the show before about how rude they are. I went in again recently to give them a third chance. I was the only person in the store and I wasn't even greeted. That is a TERRIBLE example to show new players. I hope other people don't have the same problem with their local gaming stores.
|
|
D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
|
Post by D.T. Pints on Aug 21, 2013 17:09:51 GMT -8
Big box book stores seem to understand the need to promote something like games. I think it's their drive for that elusive dollar. Which is probably why our small town had a tighter gaming community than Fort Myers which has two game stores. Here they just don't try. I've written in to the show before about how rude they are. I went in again recently to give them a third chance. I was the only person in the store and I wasn't even greeted. That is a TERRIBLE example to show new players. I hope other people don't have the same problem with their local gaming stores. Yeah my FLGS is four hour hours away...across trackless wilderness and the hunting grounds of ravenous wolves. So when I do get to go there its kind of a big deal. The guy that runs the gaming part of the store is to put it politely a real egotistical dick. His D&D encounters games seemed to be designed as Adversarial DM 101 class. Lame. The advice I hear him giving gaming curious customers borders on the insulting if not utterly creepy (especially to lady gamers like my wife). The Pathfinder games I run at our local book store are geared towards mostly new to the hobby folks, its often a derailing event to have the 'veteran' gamer bring their kids or friends in. Instead of letting these gaming curious individuals figure it out for themselves they get to hear what they can/can't do. The desire to be an "authority" and lord that over others is a definite kick in the crotch to any gamer community growth (which I now realize is also a creepy metaphor and probably not helping either...). So I agree with maxinstuff that I don't feel any necessary 'responsibility' for promoting RPGs; I just enjoy it. If you haven't sat down and created characters and played for a few hours with a group that totally consists of new to the hobby gamers, I highly recommend it. They will often remind you of the weird magic that happens in these games that keeps us coming back again and again, and discussing it ad nauseum (although maybe you don't speak celtic...I love that episode!#whovianreferences) on forums...which is fun too .
|
|
SirGuido
Supporter
Drizztmas Santa
Ask me about the Drizztmas Exchange!
Posts: 2,127
Preferred Game Systems: L5R, Traveller, Fate Accelerated, Masks
Currently Playing: Nothing.
Currently Running: Nothing.
Favorite Species of Monkey: Anything in a Cage.
|
Post by SirGuido on Aug 21, 2013 17:39:13 GMT -8
Maybe I'm in a different subset since I spend most of my gaming time in a gaming store and it is not uncommon for me to get up from the game table to go talk to a customer that walks in and starts perusing the shelves. I talk to them and see what they are interested in, if they are first timers I almost invariably invite them to a retro d&d game or a Pathfinder Society night or a board game meetup, etc. I introduce them to multiple people in the store to get them feeling welcomed and invited in to our little inner circle of geekdom. And its not just in the game store. Recently I was in the grocery store and someone asked me about the shirt I was wearing(happened to be the shirt for my FLGS), and asked if I liked video games. I get this question often when I mention I'm a gamer. I said no, and then proceeded to bring up the standard games like Monopoly, Risk, and things along those lines. She mentioned she loved those games as a kid and I said well these days they are taking that basic concept and turning them into games adults can love. More strategy, more interaction, more time to interact with friends. I invited her to come by the game store and check it out sometime, and I'm told she was just there this evening and is interested in coming back for the board game group this weekend. I have gotten so many people involved in gaming just because of my own passion for the hobby and my willingness to bring it to a level where new people can understand what it is we do. I think what I do is intrinsically important to keeping this hobby thriving and not being completely overwhelmed by fatbeards who huddle in their mothers' basements. GenCon this year proves that gaming is thriving(record attendance of damn near 50,000 people), and that it includes all ranges of people. Fat, skinny, white, black, hispanic, asian, indian, men, women, young, old, and middle aged. All of them were there, and all of them were gamers. That wouldn't be the case if we left it up to game companies to bring new blood into the hobby.
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Aug 22, 2013 2:05:16 GMT -8
Well I think the observation about the difference between TTRPGS's and CRPG's is spot on . . . in fact the big mistake WoTC appeared to make was in attempting to emulate the MMORPG marketing model to improve growth. Now, that being said the failure of the likes of D&D 4e to improve WoTC's market position may be because of the ongoing economic crisis of the time - during a recession people become a bit more 'conservative' with their entertainment: unwilling to risk money on an unknown and sticking to 'what they know they enjoy' (eg: MMORPG's). Is it my responsibility to 'grow the hobby'? I agree with maxinstuff : no it isn't. Not because I don't want to be but because I'm not in a position to have or exercise that responsibility except at a very small, local and personal level. The truth is my friends either game or they don't and they pretty much know which they prefer by now . . . though on the odd occasion you can get a hit and 'resurrect' a former gamer after decades of inactivity. FLGS's sound like a wonderful thing . . . but they are rare beasts and outside of the US they are rarely independent or convenient. In the UK - excepting the big cities - they're just not local, they're usually a severely marginalised part of a bigger concern (like Forbidden Planet)and often not very friendly (being served by a disinterested hipster douchebag who clearly has NO interest in the hobby except his preferred system of choice, which is dictated by the rule of 'what's the shiniest',really doesn't make for a good 'return to gaming' experience - I'm looking at you FanBoy 3. Most FLGS's of worth in the UK (for those outside the likes of Manchester, Birmingham and London) are virtual . . . my nearest FLGS is within 3 miles of lunafeline except he's Online Only, so browsing isn't an option and you've got to know he exists and, by default, already be a gamer before you arrive at his door step so to speak. My experience of FLGS's in Oz was more akin to those reported by D.T. Pints with certain franchise's aggressively attempting to monopolize the market while providing a cursory service (Cunts) Aaron
|
|
|
Post by heavymetaljess on Aug 22, 2013 5:14:39 GMT -8
Maybe I'm in a different subset since I spend most of my gaming time in a gaming store and it is not uncommon for me to get up from the game table to go talk to a customer that walks in and starts perusing the shelves. I talk to them and see what they are interested in, if they are first timers I almost invariably invite them to a retro d&d game or a Pathfinder Society night or a board game meetup, etc. I introduce them to multiple people in the store to get them feeling welcomed and invited in to our little inner circle of geekdom. Do you have to decide if you're going to run a game store for the forces of good or evil when you found it like in old school video game RPGs? Because I really feel like it's that black and white. If only the evil ones knew the cost of their treachery! P.S. Thank you for being an awesome person to your customers.
|
|
SirGuido
Supporter
Drizztmas Santa
Ask me about the Drizztmas Exchange!
Posts: 2,127
Preferred Game Systems: L5R, Traveller, Fate Accelerated, Masks
Currently Playing: Nothing.
Currently Running: Nothing.
Favorite Species of Monkey: Anything in a Cage.
|
Post by SirGuido on Aug 22, 2013 6:17:47 GMT -8
Maybe I'm in a different subset since I spend most of my gaming time in a gaming store and it is not uncommon for me to get up from the game table to go talk to a customer that walks in and starts perusing the shelves. I talk to them and see what they are interested in, if they are first timers I almost invariably invite them to a retro d&d game or a Pathfinder Society night or a board game meetup, etc. I introduce them to multiple people in the store to get them feeling welcomed and invited in to our little inner circle of geekdom. Do you have to decide if you're going to run a game store for the forces of good or evil when you found it like in old school video game RPGs? Because I really feel like it's that black and white. If only the evil ones knew the cost of their treachery! P.S. Thank you for being an awesome person to your customers. Just to be completely clear... I neither own nor work at my FLGS in any official capacity.
|
|
addicted2aa
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 37
Preferred Game Systems: EP, ORE, and Savage Worlds.
|
Post by addicted2aa on Aug 22, 2013 6:40:32 GMT -8
Personally I do think we have a responsibility to grow the hobby. Just as we have a responsibility to not pollute the plant, be aware and involved in political affairs, and help out the millions of starving and sick.
Yes those are clearly more important than growing our hobby, and in way comparing them is similar to bringing comparing a person to Hitler for casual racism. My point though, is that while these things are important many if not most people put in a token effort at best to follow them. And that doesn't make them bad people, it just means they have different priorities. The same is true here.
As a Role Player we are a members of the Role Playing community. By not doing what we can to grow the community we are complicit in letting it die. We are not doing are part to improve the community. That said, doing our part for this community is an understandably small concern in a contemporary adult life. In fact if it comes down to having the energy to reach out new players and evangelize the hobby vs having the energy to run an AMAZING game for your current group, that to me is a no brainer. You have a much greater responsibility to your friends and the group you entered into a social contract with.
But to say you have no responsibility is to ignore, to not even pay lip service, and acknowledge your complicity in letting the hobby die, is just plain wrong. You may not have the time, energy, ability, or opportunity to grow the hobby, but you do have the responsibility. It's one of hundreds of responsibilities we all have in our life and probably one of dozens we aren't living up to. But it is still there
|
|
|
Post by heavymetaljess on Aug 22, 2013 8:57:43 GMT -8
Do you have to decide if you're going to run a game store for the forces of good or evil when you found it like in old school video game RPGs? Because I really feel like it's that black and white. If only the evil ones knew the cost of their treachery! P.S. Thank you for being an awesome person to your customers. Just to be completely clear... I neither own nor work at my FLGS in any official capacity. You just go there and act like a normal, friendly guy? ... Pics or it didn't happen.
|
|
D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
|
Post by D.T. Pints on Aug 22, 2013 9:33:36 GMT -8
But to say you have no responsibility is to ignore, to not even pay lip service, and acknowledge your complicity in letting the hobby die, is just plain wrong. You may not have the time, energy, ability, or opportunity to grow the hobby, but you do have the responsibility. It's one of hundreds of responsibilities we all have in our life and probably one of dozens we aren't living up to. But it is still there Maybe its word choice. "Responsibility" sounds waaay too much like Captain America defeating the Wattage Waster and the Cold Air Crook or some Douche Bag version of a paladin telling everyone else in the group what the best way to behave is...gets my dander up. Did you take that personality What DnD character are you personality test addicted2aa ? I ended up being neutral good, which even though I kinda hate alignments is not too far off. Anyway, I am a firm believer in "thinking globally, acting locally" mentality but that damn catch phrase has been taken on by so many noxious, righteous cause heads that I've gotten rather frustrated with such heavy handed phrases as "social responsibility". Social responsibility usually is accompanied by the phrase we have, you have and other types of finger pointing. Fuck that, lead by example. If I want to grow the hobby and I hope others will do the same, then I'll just do things that I think help grow the hobby. I just don't want to feel that its my 'responsibility' to do so. I also realize that I'm a huge hypocrite and the first thing I thought when I saw those highly arbitrary and not very useful for any sort of overall trend determiner, rpg podcaster survey results was "we gotta do more to grow the hobby!" (long sentence sorry...) Along the lines of increased awareness of TTRPGs (by the way my wife was reading this thread over my shoulder and saw kainguru's list of acronyms and the sly minx said "well that certainly is going to help...". Dangerously witty, my wife. ) Here's a book that just came out this week and featured an Public Radio piece as well just in time for 50k attendance at Gen Con! (that's fuckin' amazing !) www.npr.org/2013/08/18/213205129/of-dice-and-men-all-grown-up-and-still-fighting-monstersHmmm...bit of a rant. But still a nice topic to ponder.
|
|
SirGuido
Supporter
Drizztmas Santa
Ask me about the Drizztmas Exchange!
Posts: 2,127
Preferred Game Systems: L5R, Traveller, Fate Accelerated, Masks
Currently Playing: Nothing.
Currently Running: Nothing.
Favorite Species of Monkey: Anything in a Cage.
|
Post by SirGuido on Aug 22, 2013 9:57:21 GMT -8
Just to be completely clear... I neither own nor work at my FLGS in any official capacity. You just go there and act like a normal, friendly guy? ... Pics or it didn't happen. Scout's honor. A large chunk of the regulars do the same thing. The store owner kind of leans on us for our various areas of expertise if he has customers with questions its not unheard of for him to call or text me and ask me the question or put the person on the phone with me.
|
|
addicted2aa
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 37
Preferred Game Systems: EP, ORE, and Savage Worlds.
|
Post by addicted2aa on Aug 22, 2013 10:16:18 GMT -8
I was a nuetral Good sorcer, lvl4 I believe with slightly above average 4d6 stats, nothing compared to the all 16+ most people seemed to get. I was surprised to be labeled good and not neutral. While I have my own set of principles I'm usually a complete moral relativist.
While I may sound like a duechebag paladin preacher type, saying we all have this responsibility, I don't think that detracts from my point. Those assholes who condemn you for such enjoyable crimes as eating meat, driving an SUV, and not donating all your money to Bono's shitty charities, do have a point. You are failing to improve the world in those areas. In much the same way it is your responsibility to keep a shared living space clean, it's your responsibility to make the world livable and keep the communities your part of alive and vibrant. And in the same way I'm not picking up my roommates trash*, cause fuck him, it's perfectly reasonable to say "Not growing the hobby cause I have better things to do."
*In case you think you aren't responsible for your roommates trash, you will still be hit with violating lease agreements when the term is up, not living up to tenant responsibilities, and you will still have grossed out guests when they come over, not living up to host responsibilities. Your roommates certainly has a greater responsibility to clean it up, but that doesn't devoid you of your responsibility
|
|