HyveMynd
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Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
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Post by HyveMynd on Oct 29, 2015 2:58:28 GMT -8
...it just makes us look like hipster fucktards with a nerd complex. That pretty much describes me perfectly.
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Post by lowkeyoh on Oct 29, 2015 3:52:59 GMT -8
In the several years I've listened to the podcast, which marks the end of my gaming hiatus, I've seen the gaming community go thru several 'next gen'/'new'/'revolutionary'/etc etc games. Games they've sung praises for and virtually sacrificed small goats and children in veneration. The same games those same gamers now disown and treat with distain like those games are no better than a used up crack whore after the deed is done. Pathfinder is the best thing to happen to gaming! Did I say Pathfinder? I meant Savage Worlds! No wait, FATE! Wait, FATE is so 2013, it's all about Powered By the Apocalypse! Is that a new edition of D&D? I've actually ascended to a higher plane where dice are our characters and character sheets are just paper.... maaaaaan. I have a huge problem with the way d20 as a system is constructed. Anyone who questions this can go read my 20,000 word post on why d20 doesn't balance satisfying game with satisfying narrative. That being said I can't understand why anyone trashes any other system as inferior. As much as I love PBTA it doesn't have the piecewise character customization that Pathfinder. Neither does GURPS have quite the same ability to inspire cinematic action that SW does. No system is perfect. No system delivers everything to everyone. Trashing mainstream games because you've evolved past them doesn't make you enlightened, it just makes you a whinging hipster who alienates people who are looking to get different things out of gaming than you. That being said. White Wolf is an objectively bad system that only nerds play.
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Post by shadrack on Oct 29, 2015 5:44:16 GMT -8
Yeah, Savage Worlds doesn't seem the best choice for a solo game. There. Fixed that for you. watch it... Anyway, about the Israeli Dungeon World con game. You need to have something in mind. It certainly doesn't need to be as fleshed out as it might be for other systems, but sometimes you need the rails. (can't go off 'em if they aren't there). In a similar vein, I just got asked by my daughter when we can play Dungeons and Dragons again (she's 9). What she maybe doesn't realize yet is that we're actually playing Dungeon World. She and my son started out making their way out of Zanzer's Dungeon (from the 91? boxed set). The moral of this little blurb is that it's super easy to swap systems on adventures like this. Even having a blank map (one of Dyson Logos' maps would work very well), would probably have saved that con game. It can be populated by the monster's the player's bring up in their backgrounds, and we can probably work in a human baddie of some sort, also from the backstory bit. aside: What's going to be almost as cool is when I show them the minecraft versions of good old Zanzer's crib when we're all done with the module.
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Post by HourEleven on Oct 29, 2015 7:24:47 GMT -8
The "new shiny" is the curse of our hobby.
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Post by joecrak on Oct 29, 2015 7:34:40 GMT -8
In the several years I've listened to the podcast, which marks the end of my gaming hiatus, I've seen the gaming community go thru several 'next gen'/'new'/'revolutionary'/etc etc games. Games they've sung praises for and virtually sacrificed small goats and children in veneration. The same games those same gamers now disown and treat with distain like those games are no better than a used up crack whore after the deed is done. I have a huge problem with the way d20 as a system is constructed. Anyone who questions this can go read my 20,000 word post on why d20 doesn't balance satisfying game with satisfying narrative. That being said I can't understand why anyone trashes any other system as inferior. As much as I love PBTA it doesn't have the piecewise character customization that Pathfinder. I can understand it. If you think the system is so inferior that it sucks your personal enjoyment out of the game, then yea, I can see myself verbally trashing it. Same thing with movies, and anything that is subjective. It's funny you say that about Pathfinder in comparison to PBTA, because I feel Pathfinder doesn't allow for the character customization that PBTA allows me.
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Post by Probie Tim on Oct 29, 2015 8:02:15 GMT -8
White Wolf is an objectively bad system that only nerds play. How dare you! You... you... whinging hipster who alienates people looking to get different things out of gaming than you are!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2015 8:35:17 GMT -8
It's not white wolf's system… it's their players that are bad >.>
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sbloyd
Supporter
WHAT! A human in a Precursor service vehicle?!
Posts: 2,762
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller; Dresden; Mage
Favorite Species of Monkey: Goddamnit, Curious George is a CHIMP not a monkey! Stop teaching my daughter improper classification!
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Post by sbloyd on Oct 29, 2015 10:27:50 GMT -8
Well, there are certain issues with the systems, too, though some of the idiosyncrasies of the dice mechanic got cleaned up with NWoD.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2015 11:28:07 GMT -8
That being said I can't understand why anyone trashes any other system as inferior. As much as I love PBTA it doesn't have the piecewise character customization that Pathfinder. Neither does GURPS have quite the same ability to inspire cinematic action that SW does. Really? Because there are plenty of systems out there that are just plain terrible. Many games are really good at promoting certain options or playstyles instead of others, and that's just down to personal preference so it's probably unfair to criticize them, but there are a ton of games out there that are just broken and unplayable and don't come anywhere close to what they were intended to accomplish. I hope I don't need to remind anyone that FATAL is supposed to be a good game for gritty realism. Let it suffice to say that the game is inferior to GURPS in achieving its intended objective. Execution matters as much as intent, and some games are just poorly executed.
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Post by ericfromnj on Oct 29, 2015 12:26:38 GMT -8
That being said I can't understand why anyone trashes any other system as inferior. As much as I love PBTA it doesn't have the piecewise character customization that Pathfinder. Neither does GURPS have quite the same ability to inspire cinematic action that SW does. Really? Because there are plenty of systems out there that are just plain terrible. Many games are really good at promoting certain options or playstyles instead of others, and that's just down to personal preference so it's probably unfair to criticize them, but there are a ton of games out there that are just broken and unplayable and don't come anywhere close to what they were intended to accomplish. I hope I don't need to remind anyone that FATAL is supposed to be a good game for gritty realism. Let it suffice to say that the game is inferior to GURPS in achieving its intended objective. Execution matters as much as intent, and some games are just poorly executed. But we are not talking about F.A.T.A.L.. I think the unspoken understanding here is that we are talking about games that have some measure of popularity...
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Post by lowkeyoh on Oct 29, 2015 17:22:21 GMT -8
White Wolf is an objectively bad system that only nerds play. How dare you! You... you... whinging hipster who alienates people looking to get different things out of gaming than you are! Whatever nerd.
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Post by lowkeyoh on Oct 29, 2015 17:42:45 GMT -8
I have a huge problem with the way d20 as a system is constructed. Anyone who questions this can go read my 20,000 word post on why d20 doesn't balance satisfying game with satisfying narrative. That being said I can't understand why anyone trashes any other system as inferior. As much as I love PBTA it doesn't have the piecewise character customization that Pathfinder. I can understand it. If you think the system is so inferior that it sucks your personal enjoyment out of the game, then yea, I can see myself verbally trashing it. Same thing with movies, and anything that is subjective. It's funny you say that about Pathfinder in comparison to PBTA, because I feel Pathfinder doesn't allow for the character customization that PBTA allows me. In my mind at least, there's a very large gap between critique and trashing. When you trash a system as terrible you're also implicitly implying that people who enjoy playing that game also have bad taste and are trashing them, and that's not cool. "D20 is terrible" is not just a judgement of the system but also of those who play it, and that's not cool. All those sentiments do is alienate people. And it's not even a useful criticism. Why do you think D20 is terrible? What do other games do better? What would entice people to make the switch? But either way, a rising tide lifts all ships. The more people playing 'bad' systems, the more people that will get sick of them and want to move onto something more complex or narrative or whatever. As for the Pathfinder to PBTA comparison: Pathfinder let's you construct a character with the following considerations: Race, Sub-Race, Class, Sub-Class, Feats, Traits, Skill Points, and in some cases class features. All of which have real and meaningful mechanical effects on gameplay. PBTA lets you be whatever you want, but has less concrete ways of defining your character mechanically in the gamespace. It's all just trappings. Personally, I prefer that, but my group does not. They like being able to choose precisely how their character interfaces with the game mechanics of the system.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2015 19:41:13 GMT -8
But we are not talking about F.A.T.A.L.. I think the unspoken understanding here is that we are talking about games that have some measure of popularity... Popularity is not a strong indicator of quality. Just because a game is popular, that does not mean it's good, or that those same players might not have more fun if they were playing another game. Some people play a game because it's good at enabling them to play in the style they enjoy; some people play a game because they don't know about their alternatives; some people play a game because it's popular. Games are art, and there's no accounting for taste, but art critics still manage to hold meaningful discussions and come to consensus about which pieces are superior to others and for which reasons... which, in turn, leads to the development of greater and greater refinement within a style. And certainly, and game developer is familiar with the process by which a game starts out very rough and is refined over the years into a "better" game. It might not be objective, since art is inherently subjective, but I don't think it's remotely unfair to discuss some games as being superior to others. It's only in trying to compare games with vastly different objectives or playstyles where criticism breaks down and becomes meaningless.
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Post by ericfromnj on Oct 29, 2015 20:07:52 GMT -8
saelorn, do you have anything USEFUL to add to the discussion?
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Post by joecrak on Oct 29, 2015 20:19:57 GMT -8
In my mind at least, there's a very large gap between critique and trashing. When you trash a system as terrible you're also implicitly implying that people who enjoy playing that game also have bad taste and are trashing them, and that's not cool. "D20 is terrible" is not just a judgement of the system but also of those who play it, and that's not cool. All those sentiments do is alienate people. And it's not even a useful criticism. Why do you think D20 is terrible? What do other games do better? What would entice people to make the switch? See, that's a difference. To me, you are being presumptuous. You can be a good person and good player and like a terrible system. Someone merely remarking on the system, should be taken as only commenting on the system. There's a huge difference between saying d20 is the worst, and d20 players are the worst. As for the Pathfinder to PBTA comparison: Pathfinder let's you construct a character with the following considerations: Race, Sub-Race, Class, Sub-Class, Feats, Traits, Skill Points, and in some cases class features. All of which have real and meaningful mechanical effects on gameplay. PBTA lets you be whatever you want, but has less concrete ways of defining your character mechanically in the gamespace. It's all just trappings. Personally, I prefer that, but my group does not. They like being able to choose precisely how their character interfaces with the game mechanics of the system. Yea. Agreed. In pathfinder, it's like. You have to take these mechanical things otherwise you are not exactly what you want. You want to be ambidextrous? Take this feat. (take it and here's more maths for you to do) PbtA, you want to be ambidextrous? Okay. What does that mean mechanically? Nothing. You want to be cool be cool. like in MonsterHearts. You're playing the Vampire. You define what is true for your Vampire. You want to fly, sure you an fly. That all said, I still like some crunchy games. I just often wish they were less crunchy. L5R, though i prefer the PbtA hack. 7th Sea, though I prefer the Fate Accelerated hack, and wish there was a good PbtA hack. FFG Star Wars...still judging the PbtA hack. WHFRP 3E. Though I hate the cards.
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