fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Mar 13, 2016 1:48:11 GMT -8
Maybe because 'orphan' is such a common trope in the genre - from Dickins to Tolkien to Lieber to Moorcock to Martin Aaron Said Blood Elf's Biological Blood Elf Parents might be dead. but what if her Tauren Adopted Father that Raised her was still alive and still a prominent background NPC? an Orphan can still have siblings and can even have Adopted Parents or even a Parental figurehead they possess attachments to. most Orphans even still have aunts, uncles or cousins. just because you are an Orphan doesn't mean you don't have family, whether biological or surrogate. said Blood Elf Shaman could be even part of a Trio of Blood Elf Sisters that were adopted and became Shamans. i even played a Grey Elf Orphan that was Adopted by a Good Aligned Silver Scale Kobold and raised her as if she was his own in a primarily human run village. Sure, that's all good, lots of plot points to work on there as GM (though as I stated I've no idea about this "Azeroth" and thus I have no idea whether Taurens ever adopt blood elves, so let's assume this one does for whatever reason). So as long as she didn't look like a a little girl, and was uncoordinated like every other character the player has brought to the table, I think we're good to go.
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Post by ilina on Mar 13, 2016 2:13:05 GMT -8
the Blood Elf in Question would look like a Typical Young Adult Blood Elf. Elven Figure isn't as buxom or curvy as the human counterpart. most blood elves pretty delicate featured. but she wouldn't be uncoordinated, it would just be that Agility isn't her primary stat, but it isn't a dump stat either. i was thinking more 19-24 in blood elf years and less 12-14 in blood elf years.
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Post by Kainguru on Mar 13, 2016 2:35:41 GMT -8
the Blood Elf in Question would look like a Typical Young Adult Blood Elf. Elven Figure isn't as buxom or curvy as the human counterpart. most blood elves pretty delicate featured. 'That's just marketing, man' . . . liberate the Elven Phenotype from the strictures of an oppressive patriarchal culture of expectation . . . Embrace the Real Elf Aaron
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Post by ayslyn on Mar 13, 2016 7:08:40 GMT -8
would you honestly ban the Blood Elf for being Too Exotic? would you ban her for being a Shaman; which is a class Blood Elf PCs can't normally become in Azeroth? would you ban her for being an Honorary Windspeaker? or would you accept her as the kind of character that would help the Alliance in taking the fight straight to Garrosh? It's not banning because it was never allowed in the first place. You might want to look up the definition of ban before spewing off that kinda rant...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -8
You might want to look up the definition of ban before spewing off that kinda rant... Tone and subtext are important here. Banning something might be the logical equivalent of not allowing it, but the word has a lot of baggage based on popular usage. When the GM bans something, they are actively removing an option to which the player would otherwise feel entitled. When the GM simply doesn't permit something like this, they aren't doing anything - but they have the option of choosing to allow the thing if they want to be nice. When you talk about banning something, you're putting the GM into the role of the mean authority figure who is preventing you from having fun, which is totally not a fair characterization for this person who is going through all of the effort to run a game for you. By flipping that around, you let the GM become the cool one if they decide to give you extra stuff, but you're not unfairly demonizing them for not bending to your whim.
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Post by ericfromnj on Mar 13, 2016 14:28:56 GMT -8
I'd likely ban the character for being an orphan I've met too many "I have no family" types in my 36 or whatever years of roleplaying. Hrm...I always seem to run into characters that are straight out of The Outlaw Josey Wales.
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Post by ayslyn on Mar 13, 2016 17:37:34 GMT -8
You might want to look up the definition of ban before spewing off that kinda rant... Tone and subtext are important here. Banning something might be the logical equivalent of not allowing it, but the word has a lot of baggage based on popular usage. When the GM bans something, they are actively removing an option to which the player would otherwise feel entitled. When the GM simply doesn't permit something like this, they aren't doing anything - but they have the option of choosing to allow the thing if they want to be nice. When you talk about banning something, you're putting the GM into the role of the mean authority figure who is preventing you from having fun, which is totally not a fair characterization for this person who is going through all of the effort to run a game for you. By flipping that around, you let the GM become the cool one if they decide to give you extra stuff, but you're not unfairly demonizing them for not bending to your whim. That's.... a whole lotta verbiage just to say "You're right, I was mistaken, but I can't actually bring myself to admit it." 's OK. I got the subtext. There's nothing wrong with asking to bring a special snowflake character. Worst case scenario, your GM says no. In which case, you're no worse off than if you hadn't asked to begin with. Just be ready to accept that. HOWEVER... If your GM is any good, he'll spot the problems ahead of time and negotiate with you to get the character you want that will work inside his framework. Even if it's just finding out which itch you're trying to scratch with your special snowflake, and figuring out a way with you to play a character more in line with his strictures and still scratch that itch.
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HyveMynd
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Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
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Post by HyveMynd on Mar 13, 2016 17:53:31 GMT -8
That's.... a whole lotta verbiage just to say "You're right, I was mistaken, but I can't actually bring myself to admit it." Some people would rather talk themselves hoarse rather than admit someone else is right. Adding more to the conversation. I think "exotic" PCs are a problem if the player in question is A) trying to get some kind of ridiculous bonus through an unlikely combination of character elements, or B) intentionally disregarding the parameters of the game set up by the group. For example, when we started our Vampire: the Requiem game many, many years ago, one player asked if he could be a werewolf. The answer? A firm "No, no you can't." followed up with suggestions about how they could make a somewhat feral vampire. That's a fairly simplistic example mind, but I think it's a valid one. If the GM or the group has put limitations on the types of characters that are appropriate for the game being played, play within the rules. Don't show up to a Vampire game with an orphaned werewolf that was raised by vampires, regardless of how cool you think that concept is.
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Post by ayslyn on Mar 13, 2016 19:37:04 GMT -8
Well, yes and no.... Just show up? No, you're right. That would be wrong... Unless you came with two characters.... "I know we talked about an all Vamp game, but I was reading/watching/listening to BLAH and got really inspired. Look over this, and let me know if you'll make an exception. If not, then I got a Vamp here also."
Also look back on what your own example. You had one player who didn't see what he wanted out of the core, asked about something that did interest him, and you showed him how to do that while staying within the paradigm.
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Post by ilina on Mar 13, 2016 20:16:22 GMT -8
not everyone seeking to play a Seemingly Exotic character is trying to get a Ridiculous Bonus through an odd combination of character elements. i generally might just want permission to train in a profession that a member of that race wouldn't normally be culturally exposed to. or to play a member of a race from a different part of the same Country or Continent. i'm not the kind of girl that would minmax a big beefy ogre barbarian. but i would actually play a Blood Elf Shaman or a Tauren Rogue in Azeroth or Play a Vault Dweller in Fallout. not that Vault Dwellers are truly rare. just not excessively common. by pokemon card ratings, more Diamond in the bottom right corner and less Star.
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HyveMynd
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Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
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Post by HyveMynd on Mar 13, 2016 21:04:19 GMT -8
Well, yes and no.... Just show up? No, you're right. That would be wrong... Unless you came with two characters.... "I know we talked about an all Vamp game, but I was reading/watching/listening to BLAH and got really inspired. Look over this, and let me know if you'll make an exception. If not, then I got a Vamp here also." Also look back on what your own example. You had one player who didn't see what he wanted out of the core, asked about something that did interest him, and you showed him how to do that while staying within the paradigm. See, I kind of disagree there. We've established the parameters of the game as a group, and this player wants to buck them right from the get go. Yes, the player was polite about it, but I feel it's kind of rude for them even to ask. Bring up the fact you want to play something different when the group is discussing the parameters of the game. not everyone seeking to play a Seemingly Exotic character is trying to get a Ridiculous Bonus through an odd combination of character elements. i generally might just want permission to train in a profession that a member of that race wouldn't normally be culturally exposed to. or to play a member of a race from a different part of the same Country or Continent. i'm not the kind of girl that would minmax a big beefy ogre barbarian. but i would actually play a Blood Elf Shaman or a Tauren Rogue in Azeroth or Play a Vault Dweller in Fallout. not that Vault Dwellers are truly rare. just not excessively common. by pokemon card ratings, more Diamond in the bottom right corner and less Star. I didn't say anything about min-maxing or mechanics. You're still aiming to get a benefit by playing that combination of unlikely character elements, otherwise you would have made something more traditional. The benefit is being completely unique. So much so that everyone in the game world will stand up and take notice of you. I get the sense that some people make ultra special snowflake characters so that they can pull the spotlight more easily.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Mar 13, 2016 21:36:47 GMT -8
Yeah, this also touches on the discussion about changing "canon" worlds. There, both on the 'cast and here in the forum - the consensus seemed to be "once we start playing, is OUR world, and we can change it any way we like." (Which, personally, I agree with.)
But that's a plural "our". Asking to bring a "special snowflake" to the table should not be a conversation between just that player and the GM, but with all the players. If anyone says "the presence of this character changes Azeroth so much, I don't think I'm playing in Azeroth any more", then maybe a line would be crossed.
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Post by ilina on Mar 13, 2016 21:40:01 GMT -8
just because you know a skillset that most members of your species wouldn't be culturally exposed to, doesn't make you a unique special snowflake. you could have simply not grown up around typical members of your species. an elf who grew up in a city of primarily other humanoids, is going to act and feel very different from a typical elf from the woods. in fact, said City Elf would be just as much an outsider among the forest elves as everyone else not from that forest.
but really, class, profession, and skillset should be a matter of the culture your character was exposed to, rather than a matter of their species. nothing biologicial stops a blood elf from learning to become a shaman. the barriers are all cultural to the blood elves in Silvermoon. but if said blood elf grew up in a more Shamanistically attuned place, like Orgrimmar, they would pick up the Customs and Behaviors of the Ogrimmar Locals rather than the Customs and Behaviors of the Silvermoon Locals. meaning a Blood Elf who grew up in Orgrimmar, could become a Shaman with the help of the education from the locals and higher amount of Shamans to educate them.
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HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
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Post by HyveMynd on Mar 13, 2016 22:02:10 GMT -8
just because you know a skillset that most members of your species wouldn't be culturally exposed to, doesn't make you a unique special snowflake. [snip] but really, class, profession, and skillset should be a matter of the culture your character was exposed to, rather than a matter of their species. First, I'm not arguing that simply knowing a skill others of your culture wouldn't makes your character a special snowflake. I'm saying that the more a player writes these improbable events into their character's backstory, the more of a special snowflake they've made. Going back to your first post: the Blood Elf Puts a lot of effort into detailing how their young female blood elf Orphan became a Shaman, how she was accepted as an honorary windspeaker in the Cenarion Expedition, and how with her position as an honorary wind speaker, she was Assigned by Warchief Voljin to assist the Alliance heroes with her elemental magic in taking the fight straight to Garrosh Now I understand almost none of that, but I can see you've written no less than FOUR "unlikely circumstances" into that Blood Elf's story; 1) adoption by Taureen (or whatever), 2) becoming a shaman (which you point out is an impossibility in the MMO the game is based on), 3) becoming an honorary Windspeaker, and then 4) getting assigned to Warchief Whats-xer-name. One unlikely circumstance is probably alright. Four of them and the player is just being silly.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2016 22:02:33 GMT -8
nothing biologicial stops a blood elf from learning to become a shaman. the barriers are all cultural to the blood elves in Silvermoon. but if said blood elf grew up in a more Shamanistically attuned place, like Orgrimmar, they would pick up the Customs and Behaviors of the Ogrimmar Locals rather than the Customs and Behaviors of the Silvermoon Locals. meaning a Blood Elf who grew up in Orgrimmar, could become a Shaman with the help of the education from the locals and higher amount of Shamans to educate them. I'm not certain how true that is, at least as far as the canon of the setting is concerned. Shaman magic has a lot to do with ancestors, for example, and you may not be able call on ancestors who don't have the sensibilities to hang out in a shamanic afterlife in order to provide guidance to future generations. Likewise, you need to be recognized by the spirits of the elements, and they may not be inclined to recognize someone of a race they've never been on good terms with before. Or maybe you're right, and the spirits are open to anyone. It's a call for the GM to make, but the player shouldn't go into it with the expectation that the GM will automatically be on your side; the hypothetical rulebook in this example apparently says that Blood Elves cannot be Shamans, rather than suggesting that Blood Elf Shamans are incredibly rare.
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