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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2016 1:26:01 GMT -8
In movies heroes don't use bathrooms (menstruate) unless it is vital to the plot and that should be the same in rpg. I'm sure everyone has seen Pitch Black, so there are definitely times when it could be plot-critical. One of the things about Shadowrun, though, is that the rules are meant to portray the world as a real place. Things work a particular way, because that's how it makes sense for them to work, and not because it's necessarily supposed to come up. If it was just a story, and the rules onlyexisted to support that, then there's a lot that the could have glossed over but didn't. In pitch black it was a plot device to reveal that the boy was a girl and set up further tension in the plot. This kind of thing could work with an NPC quite well. Of course, it works as well as it does with an NPC because you can control it and it doesn't make the game instantly ackward for the player of said character.
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Aug 22, 2016 7:59:48 GMT -8
I must have missed something, but why is it considered bad that Shadowrun accounts for things like menstruation when using a pheromone scanner? Are we supposed to pretend that it doesn't happen? Or should we admit that it's a thing, but then say that it doesn't impact the scanner in any way? It's not like this is the only place in the system where they account for minor modifiers that would be ignored in many other systems. I don't think I have a problem with this being called out, per se. However it also depends on how. If this is the one place where this is mentioned, and there isn't consistency in other places about being this realistic or simulationist in similar ways, then this ends up looking like: "oh, you played a girl? Well, take this then" with teenage boys snickering in the background. But maybe that's more about my baggage than the authors. I can't speak to those books, not having read them. If the book is otherwise consistent on similar manners, I don't see a problem. However, it would seem odd if they only call menstruation out. If it's a pheromone scanner, it should give you a couple of examples of things that could set it off (and maybe the book does, I don't know).
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Post by Probie Tim on Aug 22, 2016 9:20:35 GMT -8
I must have missed something, but why is it considered bad that Shadowrun accounts for things like menstruation when using a pheromone scanner? As far as I'm concerned, it's puerile and smacks of prepubescent youth game design. I cannot see where it brings any value to the game.
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Bakomusha
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Post by Bakomusha on Aug 22, 2016 9:30:31 GMT -8
After the scanner thing was brought in the podcast I ASAP came here to clarify, but I was beaten to the punch.In Shadowrun not only do they try to push that in the setting bigotry is a big thing, being bigoted towards the color of someones skin is seen as petty and pointless, and sexism is barely still a thing, so it focuses on your Meta-Type and culture. (Like if your a Troll or Elf, and if your under employment with witch of the MegaCorps.) My gaming friends generally use that setting stuff a replacement for real life issues, to help them play there runners better, such as using Orcs as a stand in for Latinos and Technomancers and Mages as a stand in for LGBTQ rights and issues.
The only time any of this sort of thing has come up intrusively was actually in Deadlands Reloaded. The books call out that Sexism and Racism are not a factor, but one of my players had a HUGE problem saying it was historically inaccurate, so I caved and adjusted the setting for it. The game went well until a friend jumped in who was black, and they guy who suggested we go more "accurate" forgot that the new guy was not playing his race or gender in game and called him "boy". That almost ended in a fist fight. Suffice to say i don't game with the idiot anymore.
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Aug 22, 2016 9:48:23 GMT -8
In pitch black it was a plot device to reveal that the boy was a girl and set up further tension in the plot. This kind of thing could work with an NPC quite well. Of course, it works as well as it does with an NPC because you can control it and it doesn't make the game instantly ackward for the player of said character. And if a player wants to create that drama, by choosing to play a female disguised as a male, then such things as menstruation, peeing standing up or communal bathing (off a pirate ship or in feudal Japan for example) MAY indeed be perfectly valid challenges. But In this particular case, given all the abstractions extant in Shadowrun, a defence of "realism" does not stand. Does it for example have a similar penalty for fatbeards who haven't taken a shower in the last two hours? (Not to mention science's failure so far to actually identify a single human pheromone.) I agree with the pithy comment from @tim
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2016 10:01:43 GMT -8
But In this particular case, given all the abstractions extant in Shadowrun, a defence of "realism" does not stand. Does it for example have a similar penalty for fatbeards who haven't taken a shower in the last two hours? That was my point, is that Shadowrun isn't nearly as abstract as many other games on the market. It does actually have the same penalty (+2 dice to be detected by the scanner) apply to anyone who (IIRC) is sweaty, such as from physical exertion.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2016 10:10:52 GMT -8
As far as I'm concerned, it's puerile and smacks of prepubescent youth game design. I cannot see where it brings any value to the game. But why do you think that? Do you think it's intended that way? Of the books I've read where it's even mentioned, the vast majority of it is young adult fantasy fiction with a strong female fanbase - books from people like Mercedes Lackey, or Tamora Pierce. I think it might have even shown up in the Belgariad, at one point. A girl of a certain age goes on an adventure, and an experienced hero is there to answer the obvious questions. It's not immature unless you think it is. For most people, it's just part of how the world works.
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Aug 22, 2016 10:53:54 GMT -8
As far as I'm concerned, it's puerile and smacks of prepubescent youth game design. I cannot see where it brings any value to the game. But why do you think that? Do you think it's intended that way? Of the books I've read where it's even mentioned, the vast majority of it is young adult fantasy fiction with a strong female fanbase - books from people like Mercedes Lackey, or Tamora Pierce. I think it might have even shown up in the Belgariad, at one point. A girl of a certain age goes on an adventure, and an experienced hero is there to answer the obvious questions. It's not immature unless you think it is. For most people, it's just part of how the world works. Yep, that's what I came to after thinking about it for a bit. At first I was thinking "how immature", but that's me. I stopped for a second and said, "what do I really have problems with?" And it was really if the intent was obvious and it stood out as different from the rest of the material. If it doesn't and seems appropriate, then I can see it being fine. But as always, you are walking a line here, where the way you write about it is about as important (or more important) than the subject matter itself. For example, to Stu Venable 's question about "how to approach the early 1900's in his setting book / RPG", I envision something like this (YMMV): - In game mechanics, no need to have any race or gender-related specifics as far as character creation and general game material. If you have art, commission a diverse set of male vs. female, and a diverse look and feel, racially. I think representation is very important as far as getting people to take a look and go: "Hey, that could be me!"
- The Time Period: Have a section about the setting, were you are primarily providing a list of good sources that provide different look and feels for that time period, either in a realistic way, or a way intended for the game (old pulp sci-fi?). An "Appendix N" type thing.
- Historical Events: Have a list of historical events that occurred around that time, in case people are interested in historical context (Suffrage movement, World War One, or whatever is appropriate). Specifically mention that any or all of these historical events and trends can be easily dismissed due to technological and cultural changes that came about as far as <sci-fi reasons>, so it's up to the group to decide what sorts of historical events and trends are still pertinent, and which ones have gone the way of the dodo.
- Tools for group cohesion: Have a short paragraph about tools to help mitigate subject matter (and call it out as far as obvious examples: racism, sexism, gender identities, whatever), including pointers to things like Lines and Veils or the X-Card.
I think at a point like that you've created a gender and racially-agnostic setting, and have done enough due diligence to mitigate assholery! At least that's my take.
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 22, 2016 11:15:56 GMT -8
You have no due diligence to mitigate assholery. Just don't play with them or be one yourself.
Anything else falls squarely on others. And trust me. If they want to be assholes, they will be, regardless of whether you try to mitigate it or not.
As I submitted to a thread on writing; write about a white guy and you're racist; add in a different race and your appropriating their culture. For the creator, it's lose/lose. So instead, write what makes sense for your story.
The same applies to game world design.
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Aug 22, 2016 11:26:42 GMT -8
jimto: Regarding maintaining sanity and gaming habits with children. I have one piece of advice: Establish a rotating "night out" between you and spouse. I.e. once a week (or whatever you guys can afford), each of you have your own night out. The partner, on that night, is responsible for baby duties. You have freedom to do whatever. That could be gaming, but also going out with friends, movies, just chilling at home, whatever. Likewise on partner's night out, you take care of baby while they do it. (I use mine for RPGs, movies, or hanging with friends; my wife usually uses it for doing her art and chilling at home.) It's all very different in the first year, cause sometimes you don't have the flexibility (e.g. breast feeding may make it difficult as a male to take care of the baby for extended periods of time, unless pumping, but that has its own issues). But I can't recommend this enough. Make it scheduled, make it regular. Make it for both people. You will want and need that break, whether or not you are gaming. It is a great release and little glimpse of freedom for both individuals.
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Aug 22, 2016 11:29:04 GMT -8
You have no due diligence to mitigate assholery. Just don't play with them. Just so we're on the same page here: I'm not writing about gaming with people in general. I'm writing about what you can do as a game designer in a published game where you have no control over the people who will then take the game and run it. You don't have to answer about assholes running your published games in general, but you can mitigate whether your setting is interpreted as the reason behind why they do it.
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Aug 22, 2016 11:33:28 GMT -8
As far as I'm concerned, it's puerile and smacks of prepubescent youth game design. I cannot see where it brings any value to the game. But why do you think that? Do you think it's intended that way? Of the books I've read where it's even mentioned, the vast majority of it is young adult fantasy fiction with a strong female fanbase - books from people like Mercedes Lackey, or Tamora Pierce. I think it might have even shown up in the Belgariad, at one point. A girl of a certain age goes on an adventure, and an experienced hero is there to answer the obvious questions. It's not immature unless you think it is. For most people, it's just part of how the world works. I can't speak for @tim, but I'll tell you why I agree with him. Those books you mention are likely to be engaging novels at least partly about growning up, many of them targeted at young readers whose bodies are changing, and may be seeking some sort of reassurance. And in none of them does the "experienced hero" say "You can't come on the run because you've got the painters in." or "Why didn't you tell me you were in the rag!? You've set off the fucking alarm with your stinky 'pheromones'!" which are the only possible story outcomes from such a rule. And that is why it's a rule that brings no value to any game I want to play.
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Post by Probie Tim on Aug 22, 2016 11:39:20 GMT -8
And that is why it's a rule that brings no value to any game I want to play. Yup. There's no benefit to having it in the game, mechanically or RP-wise.
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 22, 2016 11:39:44 GMT -8
I edited my post. It applies equally.
You are only responsible for your own behavior. Not any else's.
As someone who identifies as a Baptist, I am not responsible for Westburough's (so?) asshattery.
Likewise, as a game designer, Stu is not responsible for the players.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2016 11:49:08 GMT -8
And that is why it's a rule that brings no value to any game I want to play. Yup. There's no benefit to having it in the game, mechanically or RP-wise. The benefit is that is is an accurate representation of the setting, which is the only benefit you need in a sim-heavy game like Shadowrun. It may be a setting with a lot of magic in it, but it's also a sci-fi setting, and they take their science seriously. They actually put quite a lot of thought into how this stuff is supposed to work. Besides, without that there, you would have a table that literally had one entry on it. That would have been horrible from a layout perspective.
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