fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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HJRP 1712
Aug 22, 2016 12:03:10 GMT -8
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Post by fredrix on Aug 22, 2016 12:03:10 GMT -8
Yup. There's no benefit to having it in the game, mechanically or RP-wise. The benefit is that is is an accurate representation of the setting, which is the only benefit you need in a sim-heavy game like Shadowrun. It may be a setting with a lot of magic in it, but it's also a sci-fi setting, and they take their science seriously. They actually put quite a lot of thought into how this stuff is supposed to work. No, not a valid argument. Because they don't fucking understand science (as I said no scientists have yet managed to identify any actual human pheromones). And also because they abstract all sorts of other things (OK you got me on the fatbeards, but I'm confidently assuming they don't have digestion times for all the races, in case they might need to take a crap halfway through a run). And mostly because the only people that play Shadowrun (in my experience, YMMV) are purile teenagers.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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HJRP 1712
Aug 22, 2016 12:15:12 GMT -8
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Post by fredrix on Aug 22, 2016 12:15:12 GMT -8
Anyway, I'm bored of Saelorn's defence of misogyny.
Numanera - great discussion. I was seduced by the Kickstarter in my early days on that platform. It looked very pretty, and the 9th age (or whatever it was called) seemed reminiscent of The Book of the New Sun, which I love.
But then I realised it was d20 with a little narrative twist in the "I'm an [adjective] [class] who [verb]s" statement. I hate d20 as a rule. So lost interest. Specifically Nunanera, I particularly dislike the "one use" magic items, whatever they are called.
I'm trying to get my head around the Invisible Sun system. I've backed it for a dollar, just to keep updated. But I'm not impressed by anything I've read so far.
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Post by Probie Tim on Aug 22, 2016 13:49:42 GMT -8
Besides, without that there, you would have a table that literally had one entry on it. That would have been horrible from a layout perspective. I certainly hope that's a joke. The benefit is that is is an accurate representation of the setting, which is the only benefit you need in a sim-heavy game like Shadowrun. Ok, so, explain to me what is done with the information that "character X is menstruating". There must be some game effect in such a sim-heavy game, yes?
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tomes
Supporter
Hello madness
Posts: 1,438
Currently Running: Dungeon World, hippie games, Fallout Shelter RPG hack
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Post by tomes on Aug 22, 2016 13:55:40 GMT -8
Likewise, as a game designer, Stu is not responsible for the players. We agree there. Stu is not responsible. However that particular post wasn't my take on morality or philosophy or responsibility. Any writing, on its own, will encourage or discourage certain behaviors. If he didn't include information on Lines and Veils and X-cards, would it mean he is responsible for assholery perpetrated with his game? No. However, Stu mentioned his uncertainty on what to include because he is consciously thinking about this exact issue. By including information on a way of dealing with a probable situation (and common concern), he can inform people of reasonable tools to mitigate those issues. Assuming those tools actual provide benefits in reducing those conflict (and there is colloquial evidence they do), then that means less likelihood that people will run it at a public venue in a shitty way without warning others, and therefore more players enjoying the game overall. All this = a more successful game = a more successful Stu. Obviously going the other direction by telling people how to play the game (by making the canon of the game have no racism or sexism, for example), will make some set of people actually avoid the game entirely. But that's not what anyone was proposing here. And if Stu felt really strongly about having a very specific setting with racism and sexism intact, then by all means, he could go for it. And it's not my place to tell him to stop, if that's the game he wants to write. However that was not my interpretation of his take on the situation. I'm open to being corrected!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2016 14:40:11 GMT -8
Ok, so, explain to me what is done with the information that "character X is menstruating". There must be some game effect in such a sim-heavy game, yes? Not really, no, because even sim-heavy games are limited to the resolution of the dice. If you're playing a d20 game, then you don't need to model anything that would alter the outcome by less than 5 percent; if you're playing a percentile system, then you should include any factors that would shift the outcome by even 1 percent. Shadowrun uses a dice-pool system where the entire range of humanity, by any metric, can be measured on a scale from 1-6. You might add some more dice, if you're trained in a skill. But on that scale, small modifiers aren't worth representing at all. In real life, athletic performance can be hindered somewhat by menstruation, as Fu Yuanhui can testify. And Shadowrun is set in the future of our real world, so the same basic rules should apply. But the difference in ability between individuals is way more significant than any temporary penalty that would be imposed by the condition, so it's not a significant factor and we don't need to represent it mechanically. Just like we don't need to represent the difference between someone having eaten ten minutes ago, compared to someone who ate ten hours ago; it's too small of a factor to matter for most things. It's just that, for the purposes of this one thing, it's a large enough factor to matter. It's been a while since I've read the 4E rules, but it may also be the only test that cares whether or not you've been sweating recently (although that may also matter for certain social skills). It's one obscure test where otherwise-negligible factors happen to matter.
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 22, 2016 16:10:03 GMT -8
I understand both what you and he were expressing.
I am giving my take, which is don't ask, don't "cater". Write what feels right to you.
Every creator that I know have all expressed this. Write for yourself or you will come to regret writing.
The advice from both the show, and you boils down to people are jerks (and as a misanthrope, you don't need to convince me) and so you should try to keep them from being jerks.
Anyway... This is getting rambling so.....
I'll check back in once I am home and have a real keyboard.
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mrcj
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 173
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Post by mrcj on Aug 22, 2016 17:05:28 GMT -8
I took a peek at GURPS Swashbucklers to see how they handled the issue of women's status. They have a nice little section in there titled Swashbuckling Women. I noticed they really didn't touch slavery or native Americans as directly.
If I were creating a world resource like this I'd include it as optional material for use.
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Post by Probie Tim on Aug 22, 2016 17:43:25 GMT -8
There must be some game effect in such a sim-heavy game, yes? Not really, no So, no benefit at all. No reason to have a chart that detects menstruation, other than *Beavis and Butthead laugh* period, huh huh, huh huh. Got it, thanks.
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 22, 2016 18:21:03 GMT -8
Not home yet. But, before I forget again.
The Merry Wives of Windsor come up on Pandora. No sign of the Boggards still.
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tomes
Supporter
Hello madness
Posts: 1,438
Currently Running: Dungeon World, hippie games, Fallout Shelter RPG hack
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Post by tomes on Aug 22, 2016 19:00:54 GMT -8
Anyway... This is getting rambling so..... I'll check back in once I am home and have a real keyboard. Oh that's OK, I think we get each other. All that writing has made me winded.
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cybereverything
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 15
Preferred Game Systems: Narrative
Currently Playing: Cortex+ (mostly) not-quite Steampunk Pirate Viking...thing.
Currently Running: rotating GM for above
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Post by cybereverything on Aug 22, 2016 20:00:48 GMT -8
The bio-medical simulation parts of SR are terrible, and they still are in SR5. There is no defense for the menstruation part.
Anyone who has worked for a significant part of time in healthcare can tell you that there *are* detectable smells, but they sure as hell aren't young healthy women. Medical treatments have smells. Untreated wounds, dear gods, have smells. You get one woman - who, for some reason, in 2050 isn't biohacking herself like women have been doing since ancient times and avoiding her cycle - versus a guy with a knife wound who slapped some sanitizer and a Quikclot on it, I'm gonna smell that dude first. Doubly if that's a wound to an internal organ.
Women aren't as monolithic or regular as 8th grade health class said. 25% of women in the US alone, use technology that can (and in some cases, does) avoid menstruation. A runner ain't got time to bleed (or get knocked up.)
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 22, 2016 20:51:12 GMT -8
The benefit is that is is an accurate representation of the setting, which is the only benefit you need in a sim-heavy game like Shadowrun. It may be a setting with a lot of magic in it, but it's also a sci-fi setting, and they take their science seriously. They actually put quite a lot of thought into how this stuff is supposed to work. No, not a valid argument. Because they don't fucking understand science (as I said no scientists have yet managed to identify any actual human pheromones). And also because they abstract all sorts of other things (OK you got me on the fatbeards, but I'm confidently assuming they don't have digestion times for all the races, in case they might need to take a crap halfway through a run). And mostly because the only people that play Shadowrun (in my experience, YMMV) are purile teenagers. Ok... Now, I have a real keyboard... First. Scientific American, who DOES understand science, is very careful to point out that they actually do have evidence, just that they can't get it consistently. They also point out that absence of reliable evidence is not evidence of an absence of said evidence. They haven't proven that they absolutely exist, yet, but they are most decidedly not ruling them out. Second, who cares? It's a science FICTION game. In this world, human pheromones do exist. That's why you can buy specially tailored ones. Every setting has it's conceits, this is one of Shadowruns. It's not misogyny to suggest that IF we presuppose that human pheromones are real, that a woman who is menstruating might give off enough for a chemical sensor to pick up. And, by the by... When you throw in the "In my experience" tag as an aside... It kinda doesn't detract from the crazily broad brush you're painting with. And as a guy who GMs Shadowrun, and speaking for my players as well, we are neither puerile, nor teenagers. So, yeah. So, no benefit at all. No reason to have a chart that detects menstruation, other than *Beavis and Butthead laugh* period, huh huh, huh huh. Got it, thanks. again... Nice broad brush there. Just because you see no value in it, doesn't mean that it is devoid of value. Personally, I think that Steven King is a hack and that his books are a waste of paper. But, millions of readers world-wide disagree with me. So there is that. And before either of you tries to jump on this post. I don't use the modifier in my games, and don't bother to track or have the players of female characters track their menstrual cycles. However, should one of the ladies that play at my table choose to, more power to them.
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 22, 2016 20:54:36 GMT -8
The bio-medical simulation parts of SR are terrible, and they still are in SR5. There is no defense for the menstruation part. Anyone who has worked for a significant part of time in healthcare can tell you that there *are* detectable smells, but they sure as hell aren't young healthy women. Medical treatments have smells. Untreated wounds, dear gods, have smells. You get one woman - who, for some reason, in 2050 isn't biohacking herself like women have been doing since ancient times and avoiding her cycle - versus a guy with a knife wound who slapped some sanitizer and a Quikclot on it, I'm gonna smell that dude first. Doubly if that's a wound to an internal organ. Women aren't as monolithic or regular as 8th grade health class said. 25% of women in the US alone, use technology that can (and in some cases, does) avoid menstruation. A runner ain't got time to bleed (or get knocked up.) Pheromones don't necessarily have a discernible scent. That doesn't mean that they don't effect people (if they exist).
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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HJRP 1712
Aug 22, 2016 21:04:02 GMT -8
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Post by fredrix on Aug 22, 2016 21:04:02 GMT -8
And, by the by... When you throw in the "In my experience" tag as an aside... It kinda doesn't detract from the crazily broad brush you're painting with. And as a guy who GMs Shadowrun, and speaking for my players as well, we are neither puerile, nor teenagers. So, yeah. You don't need to tell me, I'd already counted you as a "Shadowrun player"
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 22, 2016 21:06:39 GMT -8
Well ain't you just a peach.
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