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HJRP 1712
Aug 23, 2016 1:19:09 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by SavageCheerleader on Aug 23, 2016 1:19:09 GMT -8
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Post by OFTHEHILLPEOPLE on Aug 23, 2016 5:49:58 GMT -8
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Post by Probie Tim on Aug 23, 2016 6:07:51 GMT -8
Just because you see no value in it, doesn't mean that it is devoid of value. If - as according to saelorn - there is nothing to it other than you roll on a chart to find that, lo and behold, your character is menstruating, then there is no value to it. None at all. There's no mechanical benefit or penalty, and it takes away agency to point at a player and say, "ha ha! your character is menstruating!" I don't use the modifier in my games So there is a modifier then? That's what I was asking about earlier. So tell me, what is the game mechanical effect - what does the modifier do - when a player rolls on the table and discovers that their character is menstruating?
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 23, 2016 6:29:49 GMT -8
There is a modifier (in 4e, not 5e) for the scanner. There is no modifier for the character. It's not like they get a penalty to their dice pool if they are menstruating. A certain kind of chemical scanner has a bonus if they are, as well as if they (any character, not just women) have been exerting themselves. The table with these modifiers has been removed from 5e, however the description still mentions that the pheromone scanners can differentiate gender.
My guess, and it is only that, is that someone thought that it made sense, wrote the table to include it, and no one noticed that it was there. Shadowrun is written by lots of different people, and then aggregated (?) into a single book. They don't always double check things before they are included.
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 23, 2016 6:32:38 GMT -8
Also, because this deserves to not get lost in the previous post...
Congrats Jimto!
And I am going to presume that the BACA you mention is Bikers Against Child Abuse. You guys rock. I want to thank you for the great work you all do.
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mysterycycle
Apprentice Douchebag
Living in a van down by the river.
Posts: 50
Preferred Game Systems: Dragon Age, GURPS, Fate, D&D retroclones
Currently Playing: Ryuutama
Currently Running: Marvel Super Heroes (FASERIP) NYC 1940
Favorite Species of Monkey: Chimpanzee
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Post by mysterycycle on Aug 23, 2016 10:33:02 GMT -8
Second, who cares? It's a science FICTION game. In this world, human pheromones do exist. That's why you can buy specially tailored ones. Every setting has it's conceits, this is one of Shadowruns. It's not misogyny to suggest that IF we presuppose that human pheromones are real, that a woman who is menstruating might give off enough for a chemical sensor to pick up. This whole discussion sounds like the set-up to a roleplaying horror story. Is this really worth defending? Is it misogyny to have a player roll up their female character's breast size and anal circumference, a la F.A.T.A.L.? It's realistic, after all, right? Is there any circumstance where that isn't a huge red flag? We're in a hobby with a long, sordid history of this kind of bullshit being used to make specific gamers feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. Maybe instead of asking whether it makes logical sense to bring up menstruation, we should be asking if it's considerate toward the people at our table? Gaming is a social event, not a scientific experiment. I agree that verisimilitude is important to maintain in a game. But, as you said, who cares? This is a science FICTION game. I'd rather skip the "realism" of bringing the misogyny my female players get to experience in the real world to my gaming table and focus on the "realism" of immortal elves throwing fireballs at corporate security guards with basilisks on leashes.
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HJRP 1712
Aug 23, 2016 10:44:29 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by griever789 on Aug 23, 2016 10:44:29 GMT -8
Well this is a thing you discuss with your players, if there okay with it then who cares. That is my philosophy for any controversial subject. If you get new people you make this clear from the start
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 10:53:43 GMT -8
jimto : Regarding maintaining sanity and gaming habits with children. I have one piece of advice: Establish a rotating "night out" between you and spouse. I.e. once a week (or whatever you guys can afford), each of you have your own night out. The partner, on that night, is responsible for baby duties. You have freedom to do whatever. That could be gaming, but also going out with friends, movies, just chilling at home, whatever. Likewise on partner's night out, you take care of baby while they do it. (I use mine for RPGs, movies, or hanging with friends; my wife usually uses it for doing her art and chilling at home.) It's all very different in the first year, cause sometimes you don't have the flexibility (e.g. breast feeding may make it difficult as a male to take care of the baby for extended periods of time, unless pumping, but that has its own issues). But I can't recommend this enough. Make it scheduled, make it regular. Make it for both people. You will want and need that break, whether or not you are gaming. It is a great release and little glimpse of freedom for both individuals. This is just excellent advice for any couple who have different hobbies. I saw this gem buried in impending melee and thought I would give it some love. Superb advice.
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 23, 2016 11:33:34 GMT -8
Well this is a thing you discuss with your players, if there okay with it then who cares. That is my philosophy for any controversial subject. If you get new people you make this clear from the start Basically, this. So long as the table doesn't have a problem with it, then everything is fine. FATALs problems have little to do with their anal circumference and breast size stats, and everything to do with their celebration of rape and hard core misogyny. Also if (and I posit this as hypothetical only in that I am not attributing the behavior to anyone specific) someone uses a rule to harass Anyone; that's because the person is an ass, not necessarily that there is anything wrong with the rule. For certain there could be, see the aforementioned FATAL. If one of my players wanted to specify that their character was large breasted, I would say ok, and move on. Much the same as if they had told me they were black, had red hair, or hazel eyes. Luckily, I game with people who won't ask me if that makes a difference, mechanically. But if others do, and their group doesn't mind, who am I to judge. Hell, I disagree profoundly with the Flat Earthers. But, I respect their right to their belief.
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 23, 2016 13:15:50 GMT -8
As a general rule -- and I'm pretty sure I've said this before -- if you feel the need to ask a question whether someone will get offended by the inclusion of something in a game, it's best just to leave it out.
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 23, 2016 13:31:25 GMT -8
Been watching this long winded argument all day and the solution is simple. SR Phermone Detector table modification errata: menstrating (female)/smegma build up from neglecting their foreskin hygiene (male) = modifierFactitious? yes, but about about as relevant as this whole discussion over one line in a gameFATAL comparisons? FATAL is a whole game of distasteful overt sexual preoccupation vs one line RPG's as published have a history of making females uncomfortable? basement dwelling socially maladjusted mouth breathers who happened to play them, yeah but the games themselves? I don't think so - unless you also believe that ODnD was able to turn you into a magik practicing Satan worshiping goat fucker or that it's the gun that kills not the person holding it. This entire 'debate' has escalated because people have used it to push personal political agendas - not a criticism, we are all political in how choose to see the world - but at least have the courtesy to argue the point you really want to argue (the elephant in the room is over there <points> ) instead of clambering on a single line in game to judge that games entire content without context. Context is everything . . . so is evaluating the whole not just judging individual parts in isolation. As to Stu Venable's dilemma, many game settings have these issues. Publish the world you want make and then side bar a discussion on why you left certain things out (or in) and how, at the GM's discretion, they can be included (or excluded) as the GM wishes. Acknowledge it's a problem with today's sensibilities and then ask the audience to move on and enjoy the ride as written. The sufferage can have many opportunities for postive RP: the feisty pulp heroine who challenges her male counterparts as equals at every opportunity (a common trope in modern pulp retro-fiction) to the more darkly complex eg: the female HG Wells from 'Warehouse 13' - but inclusion or exclusion (sufferage) should be clearly, and explicitly, optional . . . much like how the inherent racism in Lovecraftian horror is more often than not handwaved/ignored. I know not many people liked the Wild Wild West movie but they basically ignored the race card and made a movie - which was bad for other reasons (though I actually really enjoyed it, but I had far less investment in memories of the original TV show as I never watched it that much) Aaron
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Aug 23, 2016 21:38:37 GMT -8
Kainguru I'm failing the see the elephant in the room. Could you point it out to me? All I was trying to do was reply to saelorn's question: As Aslyn has pointed out the solution is simpler that the one you suggest. Shadowrun 5th apparently no longer has the offending modifier.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 22:03:26 GMT -8
There is a modifier (in 4e, not 5e) for the scanner. There is no modifier for the character. It's not like they get a penalty to their dice pool if they are menstruating. A certain kind of chemical scanner has a bonus if they are, as well as if they (any character, not just women) have been exerting themselves. The table with these modifiers has been removed from 5e, however the description still mentions that the pheromone scanners can differentiate gender. My guess, and it is only that, is that someone thought that it made sense, wrote the table to include it, and no one noticed that it was there. Shadowrun is written by lots of different people, and then aggregated (?) into a single book. They don't always double check things before they are included. They really don't look at any charts they publish. I once got a new PDF where the entire chart got shifted to the side and the entire thing was a mess to read/missing part of the info. Glaring mistake, catalyst failed to catch it. They have the worst editing in the biz.
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 24, 2016 1:21:09 GMT -8
Kainguru I'm failing the see the elephant in the room. Could you point it out to me? All I was trying to do was reply to saelorn's question: As Aslyn has pointed out the solution is simpler that the one you suggest. Shadowrun 5th apparently no longer has the offending modifier. I wasn't having a go at you or Ayslyn specifically, but the elephant is personal politics - a lot of people have jumped on this issue and blown it up because what they're actually arguing about relates differences in those politics and/or interpretation of those politics. Assumptions are being made regarding people's politics because it has been obfuscated by the (very long) discussion over a single line in a game. The word misogynist has been thrown around - without proper context. Is it misogynist to limit the child birthing act (I say act, not role) to the female gender? Only if it's in a negative context, which requires evaluation of the whole. From what I've see here it appears the inclusion that single menstration mechanic was basically a 'brain fart' moment from one of the designers - does that make him (or her, as SR was a game written by a team) a misogynist forever and more? Is it fair to label the whole game and the whole team misogynist based on this single line which was later removed? Don't forget similar politics can take different forms and claim to be the same politics - my experience with the liberal left of the early 90's was the open declaration (and celebration) of menstration, at the same time the 'hippies' were sanctifying it as 'moon blood' and 'a gift from Gia'. The ethos then was to demystify a perfectly natural bodily function and not be ashamed of it. Again context and politics. It doesn't matter what you write you will offend someone - freedom of expression does not equate freedom from offense. You don't like it, don't read it or watch it or buy it etc what one cannot do is say it shouldn't exist or be said* - if only because opinions that differ from your own cannot be engaged with unless they are known and just because someone never says something that offends you doesn't mean they're not thinking it. Lacking the opportunity to engage with 'offensive' people removes the opportunity to actually change those opinions for real: thought policing never works unless those you wish to police actually come over to your way of thinking willingly. That's the real elephant in the room - should we censor all games to cater to all sensibilities and sensitivities? Aaron * the obvious exception that proves the rule are those media which violate certain human rights and the law eg: snuff movies etc.
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 24, 2016 7:38:19 GMT -8
I'm going to take a wild guess here and say the guy who wrote that table did so out of a lack of understand of tact than for political reasons.
The problem is, it's a weapon *some* players would use against others. True, players like that would use anything as a weapon, but why hand them a switchblade, when they'd otherwise have to improvise weapons?
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