fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
|
Post by fredrix on Apr 20, 2017 2:27:12 GMT -8
A thread to unload on 5th edition, which (IMHO) is the best edition of D&D so far, and great fun to play. But it still has faults which wind me up. And I know others in the parish share the distaste. Now the key words for debate in this thread are from the very very wise HazelnutMudslide in another thread, please keep your comments "in a civil tone." Personally I still have a problem with classes and levels. In the game I'm currently playing, I'm a Barbarian, in another system, I know I'd be a bit shamanic/Druidic, but wisdom and intelligence have to kinda be dump stats in D&D, or you're short lived. There are also party expectations, I am expected to be the party's tank. My co-players, including the DM are great, it's not them expecting me to conform, it's the system. We don't have a healer on the party, and so we lost two characters in the first few seasons. A new thing I hate, having previously only played bluebook basic and first edition Ad&D before, is Feats. We hit fourth level last time I played. Getting my head around what feat to choose is dull. In the end I went for stat increases. At least feats are optional. Though now I have FOMO, because I haven't chosen one.
|
|
|
Post by The Northman on Apr 20, 2017 6:24:55 GMT -8
Huh....I feel like this is at least partially the fault of party composition and your DM. In my experience it's been really tough to kill people in 5th ed.
|
|
fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
|
Post by fredrix on Apr 20, 2017 7:05:41 GMT -8
Huh....I feel like this is at least partially the fault of party composition and your DM. In my experience it's been really tough to kill people in 5th ed. Well, the two dead characters are both from one player (who's, let's speak plainly, a bit of a dick of a player and makes poor decisions) but it's not the GMs fault. The dice rolled that way. failed three out of four death-checks. You are definitely right on the first count, party composition is partially at fault, but that's one of the things about D&D i don't like - your party has to have a healer...
|
|
|
Post by Probie Tim on Apr 20, 2017 7:08:57 GMT -8
I've never been one for "niche protection"; when we sit down to play D&D - or whatever - we're not playing WoW. The GM can accommodate for the lack of a healer. I think that's one of the big problems that D&D 4 brought into the fold of TT RPGs; that of distinct roles which need to be filled.
Again, we're not playing WoW.
|
|
fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
|
Post by fredrix on Apr 20, 2017 7:15:25 GMT -8
I've never been one for "niche protection"; when we sit down to play D&D - or whatever - we're not playing WoW. The GM can accommodate for the lack of a healer. I think that's one of the big problems that D&D 4 brought into the fold of TT RPGs; that of distinct roles which need to be filled. Again, we're not playing WoW. Yeah, I hear 4th ed was (a lot) worse. But the smell of niche protection still lingers in 5th. No-one has said to me "we need a tank", but I still feel I have to optimise my character in that direction, especially since we lost our Fighter (drowned in a river of shit). Don't get me wrong, the DM is compensating for our lack of healer, and I'm having a whale of time, playing my stark naked (AC15) elf barbarian. But I feel it's despite the system, not because of it...
|
|
|
Post by The Northman on Apr 20, 2017 7:15:33 GMT -8
I actually felt like they remedied this a little bit with allowing different classes access to the cure spells, the rest rules, and abilities like second wind. My only concern for niches, generally, is from a role-playing and player enjoyment angle. If two rogues don't care that they won't necessarily get the spotlight when it's "rogue time", then I don't think the game should punish the players. On the other hand, I suppose there's something to be said for any adventuring party that knows there are people in the world who have magical keep-you-not-dead abilities and choose to go forth without one. Like Tim said, though, that's easily fixable by the DM.
|
|
fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
|
Post by fredrix on Apr 20, 2017 7:18:59 GMT -8
On the other hand, I suppose there's something to be said for any adventuring party that knows there are people in the world who have magical keep-you-not-dead abilities and choose to go forth without one. And that's it! That's precisely why it niggles.
|
|
fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
|
Post by fredrix on Apr 20, 2017 7:22:42 GMT -8
And another thing! Bows and javelins etc seem remarkably underpowered. (Though I concede I might be playing them wrong.)
|
|
|
Post by Probie Tim on Apr 20, 2017 7:22:46 GMT -8
If two rogues don't care that they won't necessarily get the spotlight when it's "rogue time", then I don't think the game should punish the players. Every time I start a "fantasy" game, I tell the players that if they all wind up rolling magic-users, I'll run a magic-user focused game. That means I need to prepare scenarios and foes that don't require a "tank" or a "healer" to defeat. It becomes my job to run a game that, well, caters to a bunch of magic-users. It would SUCK if the players were all, "woo hoo! we're the cabal of awesome magery and... WHAT DO YOU MEAN THE DEMON KILLED US ALL BECAUSE WE HAVE NO TANK OR HEALER!?"
|
|
|
Post by The Northman on Apr 20, 2017 7:24:50 GMT -8
They're very nasty in the hands of a character who has that as their schtick.
No matter how balanced they try to make it, some of the core concepts of the system will always create more optimal paths. Barbarian plus the great weapon feat, etc. But I haven't had any issues with sub optimal characters being able to survive level appropriate encounters just fine.
|
|
D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
|
Post by D.T. Pints on Apr 20, 2017 8:59:56 GMT -8
If you want to play a team of highly trained killers (seal team in a dungeon) somebody is going to be a heavy gun, somebody is going to control coms, and somebody better be a medic. If you want to tell a story more like oceans 11 ? Bards and thieves for days...
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Apr 20, 2017 9:06:51 GMT -8
It's relatively 'new' to DnD to have niche protection. I remember reading, and cannot currently find the source, that several of the 'classic' mage spells were developed in DnD's infancy by a player who had a magic user character who preferred to play that character in the style of a fighter - i.e.: going toe to toe with opponents by use of his bespoke arsenal of spells. Note one of the great misunderstandings of ADnD and DnD (and we all did it) - because a magic user cannot be proficient with a long sword didn't mean that a magic user couldn't use a long sword, they could - they'd just suck balls with it due to the non proficiency penalty. (and clerics *could* use edged weapons but have to account for it to their God/church etc afterwards - probably not being granted a choice spell or two for a period as penance). The archetypes were guides not straitjackets. Aaron EDIT:I found the reference ADnD 1e Rogues Gallery p47
|
|
|
Post by The Northman on Apr 20, 2017 10:11:03 GMT -8
That's one of the reasons I was always confused by the commonality of hate for character-customizing options like feats and (easier) multi-classing. 5th edition feels like the best version yet for allowing characters to exist outside their specific lane.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2017 23:04:29 GMT -8
Healing magic is a straight up game changer. I had a GM freak out in a warhammer fantasy game because my initiate of Shalya looked like she was going to survive to become a priest. And if she survived to become an anointed priest (the next position up from basic priest), the healing magic would destroy the game. Seriously, he came to me and told me to change my intended path because it was going to ruin the game (which sucked, because I really liked the little pacifist, oh well).
As far as the whole party roles thing goes, I remember it being a thing back in 3.0 and 3.5 when I started playing. I can't imagine that those roles would not exist in any game that had the ability to fill them. It has nothing to do with World of Warcraft. You protect your specialists who you need and cannot protect themselves. The only role that WoW may be responsible for is the damage dealer (which to me seems like something that everyone does, but some people prioritize more than others).
Anyways, the two things I don't like about D&D are the D20 itself and the player base (or perhaps the designers who keep caving to them, its a toss up). So many good ideas have been floated for D&D but tossed out because their players don't know a good thing when they see it. It's a game about nostalgia that can't ditch the ball and chain that is dragging it to the bottom of the gaming locker. The biggest ball and chain might as well be the D20 brand itself.
|
|
HazelnutMudslide
Supporter
Posts: 129
Preferred Game Systems: L5R, 7th Sea, TriStat, WoD, D&D5e
Currently Playing: Nothing (LFG)
Currently Running: Nothing (LFG)
Favorite Species of Monkey: grease, never know when you'll need one to fix things.
|
Post by HazelnutMudslide on Apr 21, 2017 14:57:29 GMT -8
There's always been "niche protection", else there would never have been the trope that the last person to choose a character would be "stuck playing a cleric", and I was aware of that trope as a 10yr old playing 1st ed with my dad. That said, I also tend to lean on the "side", not that there are sides, of Probie thatits up to the GM to make things thematically appropriate, accommodate the lack of a class archetype, etc. It's what our group did for years once we stopped having a parent GM, we tried stuff, we made shit work, we didn't have no fancy modern hippy games, we worked with what we had! Also, Stephen, I'm so sorry your GM was so scared by the idea of you playing a priest, it doesn't break WHFRP one bit, it's just hard to get there, same with wizards, which is often why you had to hide your abilities or risk being stoned/hung/burned at the stake. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FighterMageThief
|
|