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Post by Kainguru on Apr 27, 2017 5:39:44 GMT -8
As to my personal complaints about 5e: 1) I really don't understand why they felt a need to introduce yet another arcane class archetype as core? The warlock. Yet another Magic using type. 2) They still rely on math to support judgement calls in situations that have variables that are not described/accounted for numerically. i.e.: Player/PC skill, ingenuity, whatever you want call it should factor into assessing encounter threats - not just a crunch of numbers. Really this complaint is about them still not making it clear enough that these numbers are 'guidelines' not 'rules to be adhered to' 3) If you're gonna have a non-good Paladin drop the moniker 'Paladin' i.e.: the descriptor 'Blackguard', for evil serving religious warriors, from previous editions (IMHO) felt 'right'/better. 4) The rules are a hot mess when describing how magic works for the various classes. Once understood it's easy, it's getting to that point that's harder than it should be. Maybe that's because I was reading the rules thru a lens influenced by previous editions - it made it harder rather than easier to grok. 5) I wish the supplements weren't tied so tightly to The Forgotten Realms. That's because, I'll freely admit, I was never a FR fanboy. I just think it limits the game having it so constrained to this one 'default' universe. 6) DragonBorn 7) The inspiration mechanic is scant on detail. I envision many beginner DM's overlooking it entirely, in fact I imagine many, many DM's do regardless of experience. 8) DragonBorn 9) The character RP stuff, with goals etc could be constraining as it's presentation which, again IMHO, could easily led groups (DM's and Players alike) to think that the listed suggestions are the total sum of all options available - until the next supplement comes along rather than being free to create their own (RaI) 10) DragonBorn Aaron
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Apr 27, 2017 8:27:33 GMT -8
I've played in 3 sessions of D&D 5E with two separate DMs (both of whom I respect and know run great stuff from prior Cthulhu and indie games). I'm also not a big fan for various of the reasons many have outlined, and will definitely include Dragonborn and Tieflings. But mainly my gripes have to do with the fact that this system doesn't have a "fail forward" mechanic. In the last session I played in I had 4 rounds of combat in a row where I failed a Fear check... so my character was just cowering in the corner. It was unsurprisingly lame. I discussed with the DM afterwards, and I think there are better solutions in D&D 5E, such as just give me disadvantage - I can still do things, I just have a hard time getting them to work. That said, one thing I love about PbtA games is that failure generates story and forward momentum and is baked into the system. You roll poorly? That triggers the GM into making some move. The GM move doesn't have to be damage, although it could be. But mainly it should make the story more interesting. Here's my simplistic way of looking at it... In D&D, the Barbarian tries to lift the massive iron gates that block this hallway, and rolls a failure. She can't lift it. (*Yawn*) In Dungeon World, the Barbarian tries to lift the massive iron gates that block this hallway, and rolls a "miss". This could mean any of: - The gate is lifted a foot off the ground, but then she pops a still healing wound (take damage; or take the "weak" debility temporarily); another attempt can be made, but the first one had some minor consequences.
- The gate is lifted entirely, and she notices a mist coming out from some small holes along the hallway
- The gate is lifted, but makes a HUGE racket that can be heard echoing into the distance
- The gate starts to lift... and then causes the old walls around here to crumble around her. Take damage / lose an item / close the path (choose something appropriate)
- The gate is lifted, and she comes face-to-face with the creature that the gate was supposed to protect her from.
- ...or... she simply can't open the gate, but while taking a breath, she notices a dark little tunnel in this hallway, which she could crawl through. And notices another little hole on the other side of the gate. (Won't be able to defend herself in that tight spot, but the choice is hers...)
The other main thing is that moves get triggered by the fiction, not by the players just saying they're making a roll. This isn't a D&D problem per se (as DM fiat can override everything), but one I see in D&D games all the time.
E.g. Barbarian tries to lift the gates (with Strength of 20 and 60% chance of success) and fails the roll. Thief (with Strength of 9 and 10% chance of success) says "I want to try it too!" In this case the D&D DM does not let the Thief roll... just narrates how the Thief struggles against the old rusty gate, small muscles straining. The premise being that the Barbarian's failure supersedes the Thief's attempt here. This shouldn't always be the case, and doesn't mean that the Thief can't try to find some other way to deal with the gate (secret panels, squeezing through, sawing the bars), but just letting the wimpy thief make a "lift gates" roll sound lame in this situation, and against the fiction.
If the Barbarian was down to 2 hit points from a recent battle, and the Thief was unscathed... well, maybe I would let the Thief make a roll after the Barbarian's failure. Fictionally it would totally work (as the Barbarian is injured severely) and actually be pretty evocative.
That, and DW just doesn't have this level of "balance" that seems to often be required in the D&D ruleset and adventures. The assumption for healing and certain magic items (lessened in 5E), and certain class balance, is mostly just unnecessary for DW games, in my experience. DW is also a bit more deadly from experience (in a good way), but that's possibly DM specific.
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Post by ayslyn on Apr 27, 2017 8:50:34 GMT -8
From the DMG, page 242
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Post by kurtpotts on Apr 27, 2017 16:13:07 GMT -8
I played several versions of D&D Next while it was in beta and it was interesting to see what things were pulled out and what made it in as alternate rules. One of my favorite things about 5E are the alternate rules. They have several design notes in there on the larger scale effects of their implementation.
I encourage those that are interested in the system, but feel it doesn't go far enough in modernizing a classic to check the alternate rules in the PHB and DMG. You may be able to play D&D in a style that better suits you. In case like me you love the fluff.
Most of the time when I run into problems it stems from players assumptions about the game. For instance I would not let a character roll to try and lift a gate if they had no chance of lifting it or if it would undermine the fiction. Unless they had some compelling reason why they could do so that fit the fiction. Players assuming a 20 is an auto success on every action and demanding to have the option to roll is really annoying. I'm not saying that 20's shouldn't feel special, but they aren't win buttons.
My biggest pet peeve is when people roll without first stating their action. A lot of things people try to roll for don't need a roll as we don't disagree on the outcome. Or when someone fails and the Me Too's ring out around the table.
A great example is the scout fails a perception check and suddenly everyone thinks they can do better. I usually ask why their character mistrusts the person they elected as the scout enough to mistrust their assessment of the surroundings. It feels like a softer way to say stop metagaming. Thrax the destroyer doesn't know they rolled a three.
I feel like this got off topic, but I've run a couple games of Dungeon World now and noticed none of those assumptions came up due to the players lack of familiarity with the system.
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Post by ilina on Apr 27, 2017 16:15:03 GMT -8
you don't really need magic items in 5e with the exception of maybe a magic weapon at the higher levels. and even then, most classes have a way to make their physical damage count as magical when they need it to at the levels it becomes important. magic items don't inherently make you better at certain tasks, they merely compensate for low scores or lack of proficiency. you can get a cloak that provides you proficiency in constitution saving throws or an amulet that resets your constitution at 19ish while you wear it. but it isn't like you will find items that give a Blatant +2 to an attribute or or a permanent feat short of epic level consumables that emulate wish spells. and really, one of the few ways to give a character a free feat is a wish spell. but Wish can't push stats higher than their maximum, can't give feats you don't qualify for and can't duplicate feats you already have.
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Post by ilina on Apr 27, 2017 16:26:02 GMT -8
most magic items can be duplicated by feats, class features, racial abilities, or spell effects. and most magic items merely duplicate effects granted by feats, class features, racial abilities, or spell effects. and you can only be attuned to like 3 attunement items at a time, not that every item requires it. but some of the attunement items are pretty good. not mandatory, but extremely helpful, like the cloak of displacement. i mean, cloak of displacement is screwed by flanking. but the fact it forces your enemies to flank and denies them access to advantage, is pretty huge.
at the same time, an amulet of health is amazing because most characters aren't going to spend the points to have more than a 12-14 constitution except dwarves and genasi, who likely keep it as a 16 with the exception of mountain dwarf barbarians.
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Post by ilina on May 12, 2017 23:05:30 GMT -8
funny thing with dungeons and dragons. depending on party composition, a relatively normal quest or mission such as a murder mystery can either be extremely short or extremely long. instantly solved by a third level cleric, generally solveable by a rogue or bard that is built for the task and a nearly insurmountable obstacle if you have neither a 3rd level or higher cleric nor a skill monkey dedicated to detective work in your party.
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Post by Kainguru on May 13, 2017 1:46:41 GMT -8
funny thing with dungeons and dragons. depending on party composition, a relatively normal quest or mission such as a murder mystery can either be extremely short or extremely long. instantly solved by a third level cleric, generally solveable by a rogue or bard that is built for the task and a nearly insurmountable obstacle if you have neither a 3rd level or higher cleric nor a skill monkey dedicated to detective work in your party. Ah, I dunno ... you *could* try Role Playing solving the crime ie: put the character sheet down and just play being the character, ask questions and figure it out. Besides being proficient in a skill, like investigate, means one is good at it - any non-proficient character can still attempt the skill and, depending on their ability score, might even have better odds. It comes down to the same old advice 'play your character not your character sheet' Aaron
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on May 13, 2017 2:31:40 GMT -8
funny thing with dungeons and dragons. depending on party composition, a relatively normal quest or mission such as a murder mystery can either be extremely short or extremely long. instantly solved by a third level cleric, generally solveable by a rogue or bard that is built for the task and a nearly insurmountable obstacle if you have neither a 3rd level or higher cleric nor a skill monkey dedicated to detective work in your party. Ah, I dunno ... you *could* try Role Playing solving the crime ie: put the character sheet down and just play being the character, ask questions and figure it out. Besides being proficient in a skill, like investigate, means one is good at it - any non-proficient character can still attempt the skill and, depending on their ability score, might even have better odds. It comes down to the same old advice 'play your character not your character sheet' Aaron Yeah. I totally agree with Kainguru here. I absolutely want what's on my character sheet to have an effect on the game. Otherwise I feel as if I'm just playing myself, instead of another character. But there are any number of things you can do that don't rely on the class features, skills, or numbers on your character sheet. A murder mystery? Go back to the scene of the crime. Go talk to people who might have seen something. While having social skills will help, not having them doesn't prevent you from trying.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2017 4:51:04 GMT -8
Ah, I dunno ... you *could* try Role Playing solving the crime ie: put the character sheet down and just play being the character, ask questions and figure it out. Besides being proficient in a skill, like investigate, means one is good at it - any non-proficient character can still attempt the skill and, depending on their ability score, might even have better odds. It comes down to the same old advice 'play your character not your character sheet' Aaron Yeah. I totally agree with Kainguru here. I absolutely want what's on my character sheet to have an effect on the game. Otherwise I feel as if I'm just playing myself, instead of another character. But there are any number of things you can do that don't rely on the class features, skills, or numbers on your character sheet. A murder mystery? Go back to the scene of the crime. Go talk to people who might have seen something. While having social skills will help, not having them doesn't prevent you from trying. Enagage the player, not the character. Tried and true advice. As was talked about in roleplay Dr. Douche, you can't really just decide to be smarter. And limiting yourself because your character is dumb is no fun (and may actually hurt the game). Players are the computer that characters run on. You can't engage a character without bringing that player along for the ride. It will always be me who solves the case, not my character. My character is just me playing pretend. Putting on a fake mustache or voice doesn't change who I am, just like playing a character doesn't remove myself from the equation. Plus I really don't see how 'playing your character' somehow changes that magic exists and can solve problems which would otherwise be mysteries. This really seems like a cop out answer. Sure, you could ignore the game world and your characters abilities to solve things like Sherlock Holmes, but would that really be what your character would do? Or would he go down to the local temple and give a donation to have speak with dead cast not he body? By the way, the problem Illini refers to is an issue of gating. Think of it like a Zelda game. There are places you can only get to easily once you have the hook shot. Before then you had to run there the long way. Spells like speak with dead are the hook shot and the mystery is the long way. Once you have the spell, there is no more mystery. The dead person tells us who did it and we move on with the adventure. Now, not all of these spells will circumvent all mysteries or adventures, but it is a very real possibility. All it takes is a moment of carelessness to turn a whole adventure into a fast track to the end. "Shit, I thought they'd be sifting through clues for two weeks and now they already figured it out because I forgot about speak with dead? Shit. Shit. Shit!", isn't so uncommon. There is a lot to remember there are so many options on the table. Forget one option and you could be this guy, scrambling to figure something out.
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tyler
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Post by tyler on May 24, 2017 10:27:05 GMT -8
Wait, why does everyone have a hate-on for Dragonborn and Tieflings?
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tomes
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Post by tomes on May 24, 2017 10:36:08 GMT -8
Wait, why does everyone have a hate-on for Dragonborn and Tieflings? It just seems like dragon born was some stupid response to "the game is called Dungeons and Dragons and you can't even play a dragon!?" I don't even know what Tieflings are about. When came back into gaming (after 15 years) I looked at D&D 3.5 and was like, "what the fuck is this shit?" Then I looked at Pathfinder and thought "oh, here's the D&D I remember." That's my emotional answer. Otherwise, if I stop and think rationally I don't have a problem with it. But given a choice, I don't want those fuckers in my games.
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Post by kurtpotts on May 24, 2017 10:43:02 GMT -8
Wait, why does everyone have a hate-on for Dragonborn and Tieflings? It just seems like dragon born was some stupid response to "the game is called Dungeons and Dragons and you can't even play a dragon!?" I don't even know what Tieflings are about. When came back into gaming (after 15 years) I looked at D&D 3.5 and was like, "what the fuck is this shit?" Then I looked at Pathfinder and thought "oh, here's the D&D I remember." That's my emotional answer. Otherwise, if I stop and think rationally I don't have a problem with it. But given a choice, I don't want those fuckers in my games. So its a nostalgia thing? I started with 4E and Tieflings were in the PHB 1. I don't remember which book dragonborn were in, but I have no problem with the weirder races. Except Thri-kreen, I don't want those fuckers in my games.
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tomes
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Post by tomes on May 24, 2017 10:57:54 GMT -8
Except Thri-kreen, I don't want those fuckers in my games. So, I grew up playing Star Frontiers so Thri-kreen, sounds like Vrusk, and I love the shit out of those guys.
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Post by EricaOdd on May 24, 2017 11:08:48 GMT -8
Tieflings came out of the 2e Planescape setting. They're people with demonic ancestry, tormented by their dark side. They're a demonic counterpart to the drow PC. Ooo, so edgy... Not sure where Dragonborn came from. Eberron, maybe?
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