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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 13:58:49 GMT -8
Actually, I think you're looking at it wrong. The question I was trying to ask was "how do I, as a player, know if a fall from this wall could be lethal or not?" And based on your post, the answer is "the GM will tell you if it could be lethal or not". Which is vastly different from a d20 style game, where the player can look at the wall, see that it's 10 feet high, know that a fall from it could cause 10d6 worth of damage, and make a judgement call if they want to jump off it or not based on game mechanics, not on how the GM sees a fall from it. You mean where you have to ask the GM, since you can't see the world? The only difference is the middle man of figuring out height to damage. The player still gets to decide if they want to jump or not. The bigger difference from D&D to some PbtA games is that most PbtA games don't roll for damage. You have X boxes, falling will cause Y damage. There is no judgement call beyond if you are willing to endure said damage or not. You can't hope for a low roll, because there is no roll.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 14:05:41 GMT -8
Well... I get what your saying Steven. And I agree most of the time. People want the drama and the story moment more then the dice roll. HOWEVER... My group still talks about the time in Savage Worlds where someone rolled a 46 damage on a toughness 4 minion bat. They explain in great detail how the bat of zero consequence or story was turned into a fine red paste. I really think people like both... dice and story. Savage worlds really doesn't care if you roll 46 damage against said minion. It was taken out of the fight with a single wound. However many past that one wound you do does not matter (unless the GM is trying to soak the wounds). To my knowledge, there is nothing in SW that makes such a hit lethal. Extras who are incapacitated make a vigor roll at the end of combat to see what their fate is per Aftermath (pg 78 Deluxe Ed). Once the GM decides not to soak, continuing to roll damage beyond a raise due to exploding dice against a minion is just a waste of time. Mechanically it does nothing. It can be kind of fun to see how high its going to go, similar to the morbid curiosity of watching a train crash, you just want to see how far it goes. I'd tell you though that both SW and L5R rob their players of the fun of exploding dice by limiting the usefulness of said explosions. L5R is actually the bigger offender, with raises having to be called ahead of time (in most cases), making large rolls meaningless.
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Post by vyrrk on Jul 6, 2017 14:13:55 GMT -8
Well... I get what your saying Steven. And I agree most of the time. People want the drama and the story moment more then the dice roll. HOWEVER... My group still talks about the time in Savage Worlds where someone rolled a 46 damage on a toughness 4 minion bat. They explain in great detail how the bat of zero consequence or story was turned into a fine red paste. I really think people like both... dice and story. Savage worlds really doesn't care if you roll 46 damage against said minion. It was taken out of the fight with a single wound. However many past that one wound you do does not matter (unless the GM is trying to soak the wounds). To my knowledge, there is nothing in SW that makes such a hit lethal. Extras who are incapacitated make a vigor roll at the end of combat to see what their fate is per Aftermath (pg 78 Deluxe Ed). Once the GM decides not to soak, continuing to roll damage beyond a raise due to exploding dice against a minion is just a waste of time. Mechanically it does nothing. It can be kind of fun to see how high its going to go, similar to the morbid curiosity of watching a train crash, you just want to see how far it goes. I'd tell you though that both SW and L5R rob their players of the fun of exploding dice by limiting the usefulness of said explosions. L5R is actually the bigger offender, with raises having to be called ahead of time (in most cases), making large rolls meaningless. That is exactly my point. It didn't matter. At 8 dmg he could have stopped rolling. The thing was dead and there was no story or mechanical benefit to keep rolling. By the logic that dice aren't exciting or memorable or fun... There was no reason my whole group wouldn't remember fondly the death of the bat. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by Probie Tim on Jul 6, 2017 15:27:48 GMT -8
You mean where you have to ask the GM, since you can't see the world? Well, for example, please correct me if I'm wrong: d20 player: "How tall is this wall?" d20 GM: "It's 10 feet tall." d20 player: *thinks* well, that's a max of 10d6 damage if I fall off of it. I've got 50 hit points, so the odds are good that I'll survive. */thinks* "Ok, I'm going to jump off it!" versus PbtA player: "How tall is this wall?" PbtA GM: "It's 10 feet tall." PbtA player: *thinks* hmm, I wonder what the narrative effect of jumping off of it will be? */thinks* "If I were to jump off it, would I die?" PbtA GM: "Maybe, there's certainly a chance." PbtA player: "How hurt would I be if I didn't die?" PbtA GM: "You'd probably be pretty hurt measured by whatever damage tracking mechanic this particular strain of PbtA uses." PbtA player: *thinks* hmm, it sounds like the odds are good that I'll survive. */thinks* "Ok, I'm going to jump off it!" I'm not saying that the GM wouldn't be involved, I'm not saying that PbtA is better or d20 is better. I'm just saying that there's a definitive way for a d20 player to determine their survival chances of falling off of a wall by using game mechanics, whereas that doesn't seem to exist in a PbtA game. Which is neither good nor bad, excepting when you include personal preference into it: some people like being able to mechanically quantify things like that. That's why I was asking on the show. And please, again, if there is a game-mechanics way to look at at wall and determine your chances of surviving a fall off of it in PbtA, tell me. I'm actually curious, I'm not dissing on PbtA or anything like that.
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Post by Probie Tim on Jul 6, 2017 15:32:02 GMT -8
It can be kind of fun to see how high its going to go, similar to the morbid curiosity of watching a train crash, you just want to see how far it goes. For me? That's it right there. Because... whether or not the system supports it, a one-shot that does 8 points of damage and takes the bad guy out just somehow isn't as epic as a one-shot that does 46 points of damage and takes the bad guy out. Bad guy got taken out equally both times, by way of the system. But damn, man, 46 points of damage? That's rad!
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Post by OFTHEHILLPEOPLE on Jul 6, 2017 16:32:15 GMT -8
Forty-six points of damage actually matters depending on the toughness. If it's a toughness six that means you just did ten wounds to a character. TEN. That can still be soaked, although unlikely as that is, but it matters because if you can soak seven of those wounds the character is still in the fight. If they don't then fuck it, tell me what ten wounds looks like because it's awesome.
So yes, that number matters.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 18:13:57 GMT -8
Forty-six points of damage actually matters depending on the toughness. If it's a toughness six that means you just did ten wounds to a character. TEN. That can still be soaked, although unlikely as that is, but it matters because if you can soak seven of those wounds the character is still in the fight. If they don't then fuck it, tell me what ten wounds looks like because it's awesome. So yes, that number matters. It only matters if the GM is going to spend a benny to soak. That's not a given. Further, the higher your roll the less likely he is to bother trying to soak. Hence there is a point where the GM should probably just tell you to stop rolling, because he isn't going to try to soak that hit.
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Post by Probie Tim on Jul 6, 2017 18:16:57 GMT -8
Hence there is a point where the GM should probably just tell you to stop rolling, because he isn't going to try to soak that hit. That would be... quite unsatisfying.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 18:24:56 GMT -8
You mean where you have to ask the GM, since you can't see the world? Well, for example, please correct me if I'm wrong: d20 player: "How tall is this wall?" d20 GM: "It's 10 feet tall." d20 player: *thinks* well, that's a max of 10d6 damage if I fall off of it. I've got 50 hit points, so the odds are good that I'll survive. */thinks* "Ok, I'm going to jump off it!" versus PbtA player: "How tall is this wall?" PbtA GM: "It's 10 feet tall." PbtA player: *thinks* hmm, I wonder what the narrative effect of jumping off of it will be? */thinks* "If I were to jump off it, would I die?" PbtA GM: "Maybe, there's certainly a chance." PbtA player: "How hurt would I be if I didn't die?" PbtA GM: "You'd probably be pretty hurt measured by whatever damage tracking mechanic this particular strain of PbtA uses." PbtA player: *thinks* hmm, it sounds like the odds are good that I'll survive. */thinks* "Ok, I'm going to jump off it!" I'm not saying that the GM wouldn't be involved, I'm not saying that PbtA is better or d20 is better. I'm just saying that there's a definitive way for a d20 player to determine their survival chances of falling off of a wall by using game mechanics, whereas that doesn't seem to exist in a PbtA game. Which is neither good nor bad, excepting when you include personal preference into it: some people like being able to mechanically quantify things like that. That's why I was asking on the show. And please, again, if there is a game-mechanics way to look at at wall and determine your chances of surviving a fall off of it in PbtA, tell me. I'm actually curious, I'm not dissing on PbtA or anything like that. You dismissed the part where I told you that you are asking wrong questions. Here is what you are doing in another form: "Hey, are you busy saturday night?" "Nope." "Great, then would you mind babysitting for me?" The information you want is not related to the question you are asking. What you really want to know is how lethal the fall is(or if the person will watch you kid in the example above), but instead you're playing footsie with me by asking how tall the cliff is. Since you aren't a cute girl, I'm not going to put up with it. Ask me what you want to know and stop beating around the bush. This isn't D20, it doesn't play like D20, so stop pretending it is! PbtA is a different beast. Me telling you that you are 100 yards away from some feature doesn't matter except to establish its far from you right now. You can't determine shit, because the game isn't full of other rules and stats for you to derive that meaning from. You don't have a move speed and a turn is not a set duration, so you can't figure out how quickly you can get over there. If you keep asking me for distances when you really want to know how long it is going to take to run over, then you won't get meaningful information. Ask what you actually want to know and stop messing around.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 18:33:57 GMT -8
Hence there is a point where the GM should probably just tell you to stop rolling, because he isn't going to try to soak that hit. That would be... quite unsatisfying. So you don't like that part of savage worlds. I agree that is sucks to have a great result be meaningless, which is part of what I don't like about roll and keep and other systems with exploding dice. Also, A great result in savage worlds doesn't mean some kind of overkill. You could do 9,000 damage or wounds to a mook, if they make their vigor roll at the end of combat then they aren't dead. What's more disappointing, stopping when you are in the overkill zone on your dice roll or being allowed to continue rolling only to find out that it was all meaningless because the guy lived? Heck, he may even be walking wounded. GURPS might be closer to what you want, since the game does include major wounds and other bodily harm for those big hits so that you really get the reward of your result.
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Post by RudeAlert on Jul 6, 2017 18:47:37 GMT -8
That would be... quite unsatisfying. So you don't like that part of savage worlds. I agree that is sucks to have a great result be meaningless, which is part of what I don't like about roll and keep and other systems with exploding dice. Also, A great result in savage worlds doesn't mean some kind of overkill. You could do 9,000 damage or wounds to a mook, if they make their vigor roll at the end of combat then they aren't dead. What's more disappointing, stopping when you are in the overkill zone on your dice roll or being allowed to continue rolling only to find out that it was all meaningless because the guy lived? Heck, he may even be walking wounded. GURPS might be closer to what you want, since the game does include major wounds and other bodily harm for those big hits so that you really get the reward of your result. The satisfaction being talked about in this whole bat example, though it could apply to countless others, has absolutely nothing to do with the actual in-game consequences of the roll. The satisfaction is based simply on the experience of seeing such a statistically unlikely roll occur at all. It's the shared experience among the players that they get to see such a ridiculously unlikely event occur, however inconsequential it might be for the game or the narrative. Hell it ultimately doesn't matter who made the roll and what the roll was for, I've been in many situations where a ridiculously unlikely roll was the source of great amusement among the group just because of how ridiculously extreme it was. It's the kind of situation that leads to jokes like "Holy crap, you rolled 85 on your Stealth roll!!! Damn dude! You suddenly vanish from existence, having successfully hidden from reality itself and no-one even remembers you until you decide to show yourself!!!" Obviously the above interpretation would not actually be applied in a game (well, most of them anyways) but it's still the kind of joke that gets made as a result of such outlandish numbers.
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Post by zoomfarg on Jul 6, 2017 18:59:57 GMT -8
@ @stevensw , regarding rolling: For some folks, myself included, part of the fun of some games is rolling dice. Just try to take Probie Tim 's dice away and see where that gets you Jokes aside, I like playing the dice mechanics if they're interesting. I've been playing L5R for years, and I still like exploding those tens. I want to do it. And I love working ORE rolls, too. Sure, rolling dice without a game at hand isn't fun for me, but the play experience of taking an action is more than just the outcome. Side note, I recommend using an optional rule from Little Truths: Every 10 over the TN grants a free raise. Someone on the FFG forums recommends a similar rule: when you roll a 10, you can either explode it, or you can take a free raise. That rule would limit 10-chains and totally bonkers rolls.
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Post by Probie Tim on Jul 6, 2017 19:12:29 GMT -8
What you really want to know is how lethal the fall is(or if the person will watch you kid in the example above), but instead you're playing footsie with me by asking how tall the cliff is. Um... PbtA player: "If I were to jump off it, would I die?" ... PbtA player: "How hurt would I be if I didn't die?" Ask what you actually want to know and stop messing around. In those examples, I want to know how tall the wall is (which is important to me, I'm not going to bother asking if a fall from a 3' tall wall would kill me), and how much damage I would take if I jumped off of it. And I think I asked those exact questions. The difference I'm trying to showcase is that in d20 I can figure that out on my own by just knowing how tall the wall is; in PbtA it appears that I cannot without the GM telling me so. That said, perhaps I did ask the wrong questions. Could you tell me how to reword the questions quoted above to be more PbtA compatible? Because I thought that asking if jumping off the wall would kill me and, if not, how hurt I would be was kinda exactly asking how lethal it would be. So you don't like that part of savage worlds. No, I'm a "dice guy"; having dice explode all to hell is the part of Savage Worlds that I particularly like. The part that would be unsatisfying would be having the GM shut down a dice roll that was exploding all to hell because they've decided that enough damage has been done. If my dice are exploding all to hell, I want to find out how deep hell actually goes.
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Post by OFTHEHILLPEOPLE on Jul 6, 2017 19:30:01 GMT -8
Forty-six points of damage actually matters depending on the toughness. If it's a toughness six that means you just did ten wounds to a character. TEN. That can still be soaked, although unlikely as that is, but it matters because if you can soak seven of those wounds the character is still in the fight. If they don't then fuck it, tell me what ten wounds looks like because it's awesome. So yes, that number matters. It only matters if the GM is going to spend a benny to soak. That's not a given. Further, the higher your roll the less likely he is to bother trying to soak. Hence there is a point where the GM should probably just tell you to stop rolling, because he isn't going to try to soak that hit. So you're basing your validation on several assumptions in a row. Seems legit.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 19:57:17 GMT -8
In those examples, I want to know how tall the wall is (which is important to me, I'm not going to bother asking if a fall from a 3' tall wall would kill me), and how much damage I would take if I jumped off of it. And I think I asked those exact questions. The difference I'm trying to showcase is that in d20 I can figure that out on my own by just knowing how tall the wall is; in PbtA it appears that I cannot without the GM telling me so. That said, perhaps I did ask the wrong questions. Could you tell me how to reword the questions quoted above to be more PbtA compatible? Because I thought that asking if jumping off the wall would kill me and, if not, how hurt I would be was kinda exactly asking how lethal it would be. Here's the thing. When I describe a wall, I usually describe height. Its a waist high wall, or a single story wall, whatever. I probably won't give you an exact number of feet because I don't find that particularly useful. What might be useful is if you can see over the top of it or if you can reach the top of it, etc. So the height has already been described. If you are asking further questions about the height, chances are it's because you have a reason. Therefore you should cut to the chase and address directly what it is you want. "Is the rope on my grappling hook long enough to work on this wall?" That's a good question. You may not realize it, but asking leading questions to trap someone is kind of a dick move. See my babysitting example. The same can be said about heights of object. Perhaps you know your rope is 30 feet long. You then ask me the height of the wall, because you are hoping to use said rope and grappling hook to get over it. I know you have an ulterior motive to knowing the height, just not what it is. I likely have no problem with what you are about to ask (since I'm supposed to be a fan of the players). What I have a problem with is the adversarial style where you try to hide your intentions from me until I've trapped myself with my responses. Players become trained to hide information from their GM's because they have battered player syndrome. A GM has abused their trust by being doctor douche. The wall is higher because I don't want you to get over it, that kind of thing. That's just crappy behavior though. Like everyone on earth, I don't like it when my players try to get one over on me. It is adversarial behavior which I will not tolerate. If that's the kind of game everyone wants to play they can just pack their crap up and go home, because I win. I'm the GM. Getting adversarial with me is a losing proposition. As far as the amount of damage for jumping or falling from a wall, most PbtA games have general guidelines for damage. I'll compare all the factors against those guidelines and I will tell you how bad you think it's going to be (it might be better or worse if there is some unseen factor you don't know about, aka that dumpster you want to jump into is full of clothes for goodwill and not bottles and cans). It's very similar to the improvised weapon rules in many games. It's impossible to come up with an exhaustive list of everything that could hurt you, but here are some benchmarks. I might judge that a fall from an equal height is less damaging because of the material you are landing on or the slope (which you might roll down, but take less damage do to). To recap: Ask what you actually want to know (bearing in mind description should already have been given), not for information so you can derive what you want to know. The game will run faster and you'll piss off your GM less.
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