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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 20:00:32 GMT -8
It only matters if the GM is going to spend a benny to soak. That's not a given. Further, the higher your roll the less likely he is to bother trying to soak. Hence there is a point where the GM should probably just tell you to stop rolling, because he isn't going to try to soak that hit. So you're basing your validation on several assumptions in a row. Seems legit. The assumption that we all have better shit to do than sit around and watch someone wank themselves off? Yup. Combat (where a lot of rolling happens) is already long enough as it is. As a GM, I want to keep things moving. If you want to keep rolling, fine. Just keep it down because I'm moving on. Taking out an extra isn't something I'm going to spend a lot of time on. Wilhem scream, next mook please.
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Post by Probie Tim on Jul 6, 2017 20:41:31 GMT -8
You are vastly over-analyzing this, @stevensw. Asking leading questions to trap someone? Battered player syndrome? That's all... way afield of the question I was asking. Which, again, was: "is there a game mechanic in PbtA which would allow me - as a player - to determine approximately how much damage my character will take from a fall, similar to the d20 falling damage mechanic?"
To me, it sounds like you're saying that there are not mechanics similar to the d20 falling damage mechanic in PbtA, but there are general damage guidelines that the GM can apply to a falling situation to inform the player of how bad the fall might be.
That's all I wanted and needed to know.
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Post by zoomfarg on Jul 6, 2017 21:10:41 GMT -8
The assumption that we all have better shit to do than sit around and watch someone wank themselves off? Yup. Combat (where a lot of rolling happens) is already long enough as it is. But reveling in awesomeness sounds like a great use of time! SO MUCH FUN PER SECOND! I know I have a great time when the player next to me gets on a roll ( )with exploding dice. Just to point out what's going on, Rob (IIRC) said "this thing is fun", and you said "Really???" and got nit-picky when no one was really confused, and other people said "Yup I think that's fun too". And instead of taking a second to recognize "Oh, other people have fun differently than me, that's cool", you're still up on your high horse shouting about one true fun.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 22:40:53 GMT -8
The assumption that we all have better shit to do than sit around and watch someone wank themselves off? Yup. Combat (where a lot of rolling happens) is already long enough as it is. But reveling in awesomeness sounds like a great use of time! SO MUCH FUN PER SECOND! I know I have a great time when the player next to me gets on a roll ( )with exploding dice. Just to point out what's going on, Rob (IIRC) said "this thing is fun", and you said "Really???" and got nit-picky when no one was really confused, and other people said "Yup I think that's fun too". And instead of taking a second to recognize "Oh, other people have fun differently than me, that's cool", you're still up on your high horse shouting about one true fun. Come to the dark side, bro. We have cake. On a more serious note: I don't subscribe to the idea that all types of fun are equal. Five year olds love candy land. Would you like to lecture me because I think it isn't fun and I would like to play games that are more sophisticated? I took time to recognize that not everyone is at the same point in their gaming career as me. I've been playing seriously for a decade. I have highly informed opinions and ideas about what a good game is. I recognize the role of dice in an rpg. Here's one for all of you who love exploding dice. On average, the GM rolls way more than the players. Given this, the chance that a die explodes is more likely to happen on the GM side of the screen. Hence you are more likely to get dropped by some mook than you are to benefit from exploding dice. Top that off with a side of, "your exploding dice likely don't matter, since they are more likely to hit a mook than something important", and you get a general sense of why I don't like exploding dice. I somehow doubt that the defenders of DICE and FUN ever think about these things. Your fun isn't wrong, but it isn't in the same catagory as the one I enjoy. One is like a fine wine and the other is Budweiser. There's nothing wrong with enjoying a Budweiser, but I woudln't show up to a wine tasting and demand to be elevated to the position of equals as a conoseur of cheap beer.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 0:08:48 GMT -8
Wow aren't you a bundle of joy today. You seem to be really missing the point when it comes to great rolls, people tend to get excited about a great roll when it comes at a critical moment in the game. The times when they kill the big bad just before they unleash a great evil, or when they make the seemingly impossible shot to hit the dragon in it's one weak spot. Ultimately it doesn't matter that it's a random chance, especially with natural 20's where many GMs let even the near impossible suddenly succeed. People intuitively like succeeding against the odds, even when that success is purely down to luck. It's human nature so to call people newbies for enjoying those moments is pure douchebaggery. It's douchebaggery to suggest that tastes mature? I see you ignored a good deal of my premise where I made the point that what people like is outcomes, not rolls. It's so true that people ignore the rules to let near impossible things happen because they prefer that outcome to the one the rules favors. So first up I'm going to cop that I misread your post and on rereading it yes, you do make a good point that people like outcomes. So for missing that I apologise. I do, however, still think you were being a douchebag in putting down people for getting excited by unlikely dice rolls and calling them newbies in a rather dismissive way. Yes it's often the narration of the outcome that people get excited about but as noted many people tailor the outcome to the roll, even if not inherently supported by the rules.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 0:53:36 GMT -8
It's douchebaggery to suggest that tastes mature? I see you ignored a good deal of my premise where I made the point that what people like is outcomes, not rolls. It's so true that people ignore the rules to let near impossible things happen because they prefer that outcome to the one the rules favors. So first up I'm going to cop that I misread your post and on rereading it yes, you do make a good point that people like outcomes. So for missing that I apologise. I do, however, still think you were being a douchebag in putting down people for getting excited by unlikely dice rolls and calling them newbies in a rather dismissive way. Yes it's often the narration of the outcome that people get excited about but as noted many people tailor the outcome to the roll, even if not inherently supported by the rules. There is nothing wrong with being new. You put that connotation on there, not me. Where I would hope there would be improvement is with people who've been playing for decades. If someone is in their teens or twenties and candy land is still their favorite game, you know there is something not right with that person (likely developmentally). In roleplayers I expect to see some kind of advancement as well. Stories about the 20 you rolled are something you expect from new people. They've never done it before and it's exciting. I get it. But there comes a point where bragging about or getting ultra excited about your die rolls is no longer the norm. It would be like a married man being as excited about having sex with his wife of many years as he was when he lost his virginity. People mellow with age and experiance, at least normally. Though I may be young for the HJ crowd, I'm kind of an old dog when it comes to this kind of stuff: I can only tolerate so much puppy before I get grumpy. Given that, I try to save my tolerance for actual new people. They are having the same experiance we all had, and they deserve to have it. When it comes to people who claim decades of gaming experience, I expect them to have matured more. If they are perpetually stuck in that newbie headspace I would steer clear. To me, they are just a headache in the making.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Jul 7, 2017 1:03:34 GMT -8
There is nothing wrong with being new. You put that connotation on there, not me. Where I would hope there would be improvement is with people who've been playing for decades. If someone is in their teens or twenties and candy land is still their favorite game, you know there is something not right with that person (likely developmentally). In roleplayers I expect to see some kind of advancement as well. Stories about the 20 you rolled are something you expect from new people. They've never done it before and it's exciting. I get it. But there comes a point where bragging about or getting ultra excited about your die rolls is no longer the norm. It would be like a married man being as excited about having sex with his wife of many years as he was when he lost his virginity. People mellow with age and experiance, at least normally. Though I may be young for the HJ crowd, I'm kind of an old dog when it comes to this kind of stuff: I can only tolerate so much puppy before I get grumpy. Given that, I try to save my tolerance for actual new people. They are having the same experiance we all had, and they deserve to have it. When it comes to people who claim decades of gaming experience, I expect them to have matured more. If they are perpetually stuck in that newbie headspace I would steer clear. To me, they are just a headache in the making. I'm 50, I've been playing since 1978, and I still enjoy seeing how the dice roll. Edited.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 1:08:14 GMT -8
There is nothing wrong with being new. You put that connotation on there, not me. Where I would hope there would be improvement is with people who've been playing for decades. If someone is in their teens or twenties and candy land is still their favorite game, you know there is something not right with that person (likely developmentally). In roleplayers I expect to see some kind of advancement as well. Stories about the 20 you rolled are something you expect from new people. They've never done it before and it's exciting. I get it. But there comes a point where bragging about or getting ultra excited about your die rolls is no longer the norm. It would be like a married man being as excited about having sex with his wife of many years as he was when he lost his virginity. People mellow with age and experiance, at least normally. Though I may be young for the HJ crowd, I'm kind of an old dog when it comes to this kind of stuff: I can only tolerate so much puppy before I get grumpy. Given that, I try to save my tolerance for actual new people. They are having the same experiance we all had, and they deserve to have it. When it comes to people who claim decades of gaming experience, I expect them to have matured more. If they are perpetually stuck in that newbie headspace I would steer clear. To me, they are just a headache in the making. I'm 50, I've been playing since 1978, and I still enjoy seeing how the dice roll. Edited. You are the first person I've ever reported. Congrats. Edit: I'm not ashamed that I work for a living. I do think you are lower than low for trying to insult me based on how I earn my living though. It shows the strength of your character. Edit the Second: I'm blocking you too. I may be changing my mind about if I want to keep some other people blocked, but I'm pretty sure you are no longer worth talking to, as you lack any respect for me as a person. Since you've clearly identified me as beneath you, you think its okay to be crappy to me. This makes me certain that a rational discourse with you is impossible.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 1:48:51 GMT -8
So first up I'm going to cop that I misread your post and on rereading it yes, you do make a good point that people like outcomes. So for missing that I apologise. I do, however, still think you were being a douchebag in putting down people for getting excited by unlikely dice rolls and calling them newbies in a rather dismissive way. Yes it's often the narration of the outcome that people get excited about but as noted many people tailor the outcome to the roll, even if not inherently supported by the rules. There is nothing wrong with being new. You put that connotation on there, not me. Where I would hope there would be improvement is with people who've been playing for decades. If someone is in their teens or twenties and candy land is still their favorite game, you know there is something not right with that person (likely developmentally). In roleplayers I expect to see some kind of advancement as well. Stories about the 20 you rolled are something you expect from new people. They've never done it before and it's exciting. I get it. But there comes a point where bragging about or getting ultra excited about your die rolls is no longer the norm. It would be like a married man being as excited about having sex with his wife of many years as he was when he lost his virginity. People mellow with age and experiance, at least normally. Though I may be young for the HJ crowd, I'm kind of an old dog when it comes to this kind of stuff: I can only tolerate so much puppy before I get grumpy. Given that, I try to save my tolerance for actual new people. They are having the same experiance we all had, and they deserve to have it. When it comes to people who claim decades of gaming experience, I expect them to have matured more. If they are perpetually stuck in that newbie headspace I would steer clear. To me, they are just a headache in the making. We're clearly going to have to agree to disagree here, because to me this still reads as you being dismissive of people getting excited about something you no longer do. Can people's taste change and move on? Yes. Should they have to? No. I know plenty of people that still get over excited (imo) about elements of gaming / life / the universe / everything that I no longer do, but generally I try to remember that that's up to them, they shouldn't have to have change just because I have.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 1:51:38 GMT -8
There is nothing wrong with being new. You put that connotation on there, not me. Where I would hope there would be improvement is with people who've been playing for decades. If someone is in their teens or twenties and candy land is still their favorite game, you know there is something not right with that person (likely developmentally). In roleplayers I expect to see some kind of advancement as well. Stories about the 20 you rolled are something you expect from new people. They've never done it before and it's exciting. I get it. But there comes a point where bragging about or getting ultra excited about your die rolls is no longer the norm. It would be like a married man being as excited about having sex with his wife of many years as he was when he lost his virginity. People mellow with age and experiance, at least normally. Though I may be young for the HJ crowd, I'm kind of an old dog when it comes to this kind of stuff: I can only tolerate so much puppy before I get grumpy. Given that, I try to save my tolerance for actual new people. They are having the same experiance we all had, and they deserve to have it. When it comes to people who claim decades of gaming experience, I expect them to have matured more. If they are perpetually stuck in that newbie headspace I would steer clear. To me, they are just a headache in the making. We're clearly going to have to agree to disagree here, because to me this still reads as you being dismissive of people getting excited about something you no longer do. Can people's taste change and move on? Yes. Should they have to? No. I know plenty of people that still get over excited (imo) about elements of gaming / life / the universe / everything that I no longer do, but generally I try to remember that that's up to them, they shouldn't have to have change just because I have. Disagreeing is okay. Not everyone is a fit for every group. We'd probably drive each other bonkers. I'd probably find your style exhausting and you'd find me insufferable, or something of that nature. Thus is life.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Jul 7, 2017 1:59:53 GMT -8
My work here is done
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Post by zoomfarg on Jul 7, 2017 2:45:53 GMT -8
Come to the dark side, bro. We have cake. On a more serious note: I don't subscribe to the idea that all types of fun are equal. Five year olds love candy land. Would you like to lecture me because I think it isn't fun and I would like to play games that are more sophisticated? I took time to recognize that not everyone is at the same point in their gaming career as me. I've been playing seriously for a decade. I have highly informed opinions and ideas about what a good game is. I recognize the role of dice in an rpg. Here's one for all of you who love exploding dice [. . .] I somehow doubt that the defenders of DICE and FUN ever think about these things. Your fun isn't wrong, but it isn't in the same catagory as the one I enjoy. One is like a fine wine and the other is Budweiser. There's nothing wrong with enjoying a Budweiser, but I woudln't show up to a wine tasting and demand to be elevated to the position of equals as a conoseur of cheap beer. Eh. I prefer pie. Cake has been a fickle dessert for me. So many promises ... broken. Maybe I spend too much time testing with sociopathic AI. (Go play Portal! Fun game.) I'm not lecturing you about what you should and shouldn't like. I am trying to lecture you about needless condescension. If you think you've got something of value to add to a discussion, there're better ways to contribute. Speaking as a former beer snob, no one ever said "Hey man, thanks for telling me how wrong I was to enjoy Miller Lite." (Side note: I still enjoy geeking out over craft beer, but I like to think I've grown out of my snobbishness) As usual, there's a relevant xkcd I change the last line, though More like, "Cuz it's gonna be AWESOME!!!" The comic's not a perfect fit, but I'm sure you get the point. Also, you're free to hold that doubt, but you'd be wrong
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Post by OFTHEHILLPEOPLE on Jul 7, 2017 4:07:49 GMT -8
So you're basing your validation on several assumptions in a row. Seems legit. The assumption that we all have better shit to do than sit around and watch someone wank themselves off? Yup. Combat (where a lot of rolling happens) is already long enough as it is. As a GM, I want to keep things moving. If you want to keep rolling, fine. Just keep it down because I'm moving on. Taking out an extra isn't something I'm going to spend a lot of time on. Wilhem scream, next mook please. You're right, I've got you blocked for a reason and shouldn't have tried to give you input, opinion, rules explanations, or factual experience. It's really nobody's fault but mine to try to engage you knowing full well this is the way you react to anyone with a slightly differing opinion. If I only had a brain...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 4:07:50 GMT -8
zoomfarg I'm American, so I believe in liberty. Just because something is 'better' doesn't mean you have to like it or engage in it. As long as you aren't hurting anyone, go ahead and do whatever you want. That is the freedom I believe in. That said I'm trying to proliferate the best ideas (mine or others). You and everyone else are free to ignore them if you want to do something else, but that doesn't mean I recognize those ideas as equal to the ones I'm pushing. I'm offering a cinematic masterpiece vs cheap explosions. Cheap explosions are great sometimes, but not the height of cinema. No one is going to be placing Michael Bay as the pinnacle of the film industry. I want to play with people who share my views of roleplaying (or people who push my boundaries). If I create a very thoughtful character with lots of time invested and the next player shows up with a character solely built to wreck the game, I'm going to be annoyed. Their character is a breach of the social contract of the group. New people can be given a bit more leeway because of their inexperience. I want to grow the hobby, so excluding new people is counter to my interests. I was new and frankly quite dumb once upon a time too. Their behavior can be graded on a curve because of this, but the expectation is that they will eventually come around to our more thoughtful style of play. If it turns out they just want to kill shit and roll big numbers, then they won't work out in the long run. I don't play with my friends, but a seperate group of gaming friends. Hence I'm not worried about losing my buddy because he's a powergamer and I hate his guts (I learned this lesson young). My groups don't adapt to bad apples. Shape up or ship out. It's nothing personal, but our wants and desires do not align. If everyone really buys into this idea that all types of play are equal, then I challenge you all to go play some pathfinder society. Tell me that those games are the equal of your home games. I'd be shocked if they were. Yet when I suggest that something similar is occuring between me and the way many of you like to play you guys take offense? I don't think everyone is really drinking that koolaid they want to pour down my throat. I know some people who love pathfinder. They are literally the worst gamers I know. They are selfish blowhards to a man. These aren't new players who don't know better, but people who want to 'win' more than they want to play in a good game (good being a game where people other than them are also having fun). I am a better player than these people. It's not wrong of me to say so. The line between people who love rolls and my own style of play is not so stark as between me and hardcore PF players, but it still exists. It's not a case of different but equal. And numbers of people who like something really don't sway me. Lots of people love pathfinder. That doesn't make it a better or equal game. I'm not catering to the masses, but to people who want more out of their games. I can't sugar coat this message and give everyone a participation trophy. I won't validate a belief I do not share. You can disagree and that's fine. I encourage you to tell me why I'm wrong. If your idea is better than mine I will change my stance. So far most of what I have seen has been name calling and not any reason why I would actual change my stance. My goal is not to win a popularity contest. Being labeled as a 'douche' is not going to make me recant.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 4:09:54 GMT -8
The assumption that we all have better shit to do than sit around and watch someone wank themselves off? Yup. Combat (where a lot of rolling happens) is already long enough as it is. As a GM, I want to keep things moving. If you want to keep rolling, fine. Just keep it down because I'm moving on. Taking out an extra isn't something I'm going to spend a lot of time on. Wilhem scream, next mook please. You're right, I've got you blocked for a reason and shouldn't have tried to give you input, opinion, rules explanations, or factual experience. It's really nobody's fault but mine to try to engage you knowing full well this is the way you react to anyone with a slightly differing opinion. If I only had a brain... I'm not for everyone. I don't deny it.
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