sbloyd
Supporter
WHAT! A human in a Precursor service vehicle?!
Posts: 2,762
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller; Dresden; Mage
Favorite Species of Monkey: Goddamnit, Curious George is a CHIMP not a monkey! Stop teaching my daughter improper classification!
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Post by sbloyd on Jun 30, 2017 12:21:51 GMT -8
inclution of children might have been to push the limit and see if it was too far. It worked in the first playtests but obviusly not in the more open tests so we have to see if there is any changes comming. I hope you're right, though the tone of the most recent statement from nuWW seems to be more along the lines of "it's Mature Content, deal with it".
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shinigamitwo
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 45
Preferred Game Systems: oWoD, Deadlands, D&D
Currently Playing: Deadlands HOE Classic - The Doctor Rides Agin!
Currently Running: Vampire 20th Anniversary
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Post by shinigamitwo on Jun 30, 2017 12:34:08 GMT -8
One reason might be that they wanted to make the setting darker and went all in with the worst parts in the playtest to know how the audience felt about it. It's easier to remove things from your personal game than to have "if you want to make the setting darker" guidelines. There's plenty of ways to make a setting dark. Look at the NPC Jan Pieterzoon - a Ventrue who could only feed on rape victims. He supported crisis centers in order to have easy access to his specific meal type... and his enemies destroyed them. So, he took a turn for the darker to meet his dietary needs. I've been trying to figure out how to word my issue with V5 that has coalesced between the two threads and my readings and this finally helped lock it. When I play vampire I want to play a normal person who was turned into a monster, not a monster who is now doubly monstrous. Leatherfaces Nossies, Pedophile Ventrue, and Tzimisce Cathedral builders are all things that should totally exist. Make them NPC's for me to see what might happen if I'm not careful on my path. Don't force me to be one. Jan makes the world darker without making ME the darkness. Or if I'm going to be the darkness, it should revile me not entice. I.E. I drink the blood of children but HATE that I have to do such, not that I feel a connection to youth.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2017 21:27:45 GMT -8
the rest of our American friends seem more disturbed. Shouldn't we be though? It's damaging to the hobby to have games like FATAL be on shelves. Someone might form their impression of what our hobby is by reading it. Vampire is a much more popular game line than FATAL ever was. Vampire is an entry point into the hobby for many teenagers and women (at least historically). Do we really want them running across this kind of smut and thinking it reprints us as a whole? I think not.
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Post by ayslyn on Jul 1, 2017 1:13:17 GMT -8
the rest of our American friends seem more disturbed. Shouldn't we be though? It's damaging to the hobby to have games like FATAL be on shelves. Someone might form their impression of what our hobby is by reading it. Vampire is a much more popular game line than FATAL ever was. Vampire is an entry point into the hobby for many teenagers and women (at least historically). Do we really want them running across this kind of smut and thinking it reprints us as a whole? I think not. You certainly can be, but there are worlds of difference between V5 and FATAL, and comparing the two just makes you look silly and desperate. And to be fair, while I might be responding to you, this is meant for anyone making the comparison. You seriously weaken your position when you make such a ridiculous comparison.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2017 2:16:57 GMT -8
Shouldn't we be though? It's damaging to the hobby to have games like FATAL be on shelves. Someone might form their impression of what our hobby is by reading it. Vampire is a much more popular game line than FATAL ever was. Vampire is an entry point into the hobby for many teenagers and women (at least historically). Do we really want them running across this kind of smut and thinking it reprints us as a whole? I think not. You certainly can be, but there are worlds of difference between V5 and FATAL, and comparing the two just makes you look silly and desperate. And to be fair, while I might be responding to you, this is meant for anyone making the comparison. You seriously weaken your position when you make such a ridiculous comparison. Let me clarify then. I am not okay with a product sitting on shelves that sells itself on the ability to play pedophiles. It's not even the ability, its a pregen character made by the designers of the game to represent it. I don't think every game needs to have the players as heroes, but this level of sick is not okay in our culture. RPG's already have enough of a stigma without people getting the impression that it's about harming or getting off over harming children. The satanic panic may have been bullshit, but this would raise giant red flags for me if I was a parent. It crosses a line that you do not cross. Just because the game lacks mechanics for determining anal circumference (maybe if we are lucky we'll get those in the full rules! /sarcasm) doesn't mean it hasn't gone off the deep end. A game doesn't need mechanics to include something as a theme. Somehow original D&D characters managed to climb rock faces with no skills. If that's possible than I don't need a chart for rape damage for it to be a central theme of a game. But let's go a step further while we are being crystal clear. I've met the kind of fucked up assholes who think vampire is 'sexual abuse the game'. I've had to kick two different people out of a game of vampire for exactly this kind of reason. So do I think they are taking the game in a better direction? Fuck no. They need to ditch this idea of 'exploring' mature concepts for player characters. You can have a dark and fucked up world, but not ones where the PC's are those dark and fucked up elements. Those things were only ever okay because they were meant to be something for the player characters to struggle with. Eating children is for some elder from the dark ages, not a player character. It's precisely what establishes that NPC as an inhuman monster. In vampire you are supposed to play a monster struggling to maintain your humanity, not an unrepentant sicko.
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Post by ayslyn on Jul 1, 2017 2:45:01 GMT -8
Let me clarify then. I am not okay with a product sitting on shelves that sells itself on the ability to play pedophiles. Then it's probably a good thing that V5 isn't doing that, right? She feeds on children, she doesn't have sex with them. There is certainly a parallel that can be made between the act of feeding and sex, but that doesn't mean that they are the same thing. Add to all that, there is a disclaimer right at the beginning of the document.
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ogreboy88
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 6
Preferred Game Systems: Currently between systems after a bad breakup with DND
Favorite Species of Monkey: Slavoj Zizek
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Post by ogreboy88 on Jul 1, 2017 6:03:23 GMT -8
EDIT: On rereading, this post strikes me as the rantings of a bitter old man. While the following remains true, I'm not as critical of what WW has done as it may seem. A couple of thoughts: 1) I have a game that I play with myself when I go to watch TV these days. I call it the HBO test. It goes like this: "Can you create an interesting and compelling story without resorting to 1) sexual violence, 2) violence against children, 3) torture? No? I wonder what else is on..." It's not that I'm morally disturbed by representations of these things, it's that I'm morally disturbed that someone felt entitled to take up my time with a story that relies on crutches this big. This is storytelling on easy mode. Try creating in-depth characters in complicated relationships instead. It's your job. 2) "Mature" should not refer to sex and violence. It should refer to things that are complex and difficult (and therefore not appealing to the entire RPG market). Making a pedophile character who is a "monster" is not mature. It's extra immature (good guys vs. bad guys WITH crutches). Encouraging players to explore what it is like to live with a sexual orientation that others find repulsive would be mature (and difficult and not appealing to everyone). Is that what's going on here? (This is an honest question.) 3) "Survival for the player characters should come with a certain guilt and a question – do these characters really deserve to survive?" <= This might be interesting, but it raises a system question for me. Fiasco does this... encourages you to dis-identify with your character and take pleasure in terrible things happening to them. But White Wolf is a mainstream RPG that forces you to identify with your character by modelling their success and failure at procedural action. Isn't the whole point of an RPG like this to put yourself in the position of the character, from which the answer to "should this character survive" is always "yes"? If this were a work of experimental game art I would understand, but it's not. It's a mainstream entertainment commodity. Cheers, Ogreboy88
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Post by ayslyn on Jul 1, 2017 18:55:44 GMT -8
I'm morally disturbed that someone felt entitled to take up my time with a story that relies on crutches this big. ........ Wait. What?? They didn't take up your time. You chose to watch it. If you don't like it, don't watch it. If you do watch it, own it. Take some bloody personal responsibility. Unless HBO kicked in you door, tied you to a chair, wedged your eyelids open and put a gun to your head, it's on you that you watched it. Sure it should. It's there to let people know that maybe they shouldn't let kids be subjected to it, or at least make sure that their parents are fine with it. Good thing they didn't do that, then, isn't it. Forces you? Again, what??? It doesn't force you to do anything.
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ogreboy88
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 6
Preferred Game Systems: Currently between systems after a bad breakup with DND
Favorite Species of Monkey: Slavoj Zizek
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Post by ogreboy88 on Jul 2, 2017 6:14:42 GMT -8
First, let me apologize again for the rant. The best it could have accomplished was a good old derailing. But... now that we've already turned left... Wait. What?? They didn't take up your time. You chose to watch it. If you don't like it, don't watch it. If you do watch it, own it. Take some bloody personal responsibility. Unless HBO kicked in you door, tied you to a chair, wedged your eyelids open and put a gun to your head, it's on you that you watched it. Sure. Perhaps my crotchety cane-waving is partly aimed at myself. But the availability (or lack thereof) of good TV shows that AREN'T about these things isn't my responsibility... Or if it is it is because I agree to watch pablum without kicking and screaming loud enough. Nonetheless, my aggressive rhetoric conceals a more honest longing. It's simply that I wish I could have True Detective without the child rape. I wish I could have Game of Thrones without the sexposition. Okay. Can we have another word for the thing I was talking about then? Can I get some warning labels on products that discourage thought and tend to reinforce prejudices? It's not that I don't ever enjoy products like that. I just want to be able to make informed decisions. Indeed. Full on throwing gas on the fire. Sorry. Encourages? Motivates? To be honest, this is all still super tangenty... I don't actually think WW is trying to explore this terrain. They are just doing what they have always done (hasn't children ALWAYS appeared as a prey exclusion possibility for Ventrue?) and packaging it a little more carefully so that jerks like me won't jump all over them for celebrating violence against children. They've just misunderestimated us jerks. The simple conclusion will be that pedophilia (which is irrelevant to this discussion) and human trafficking (which is EXACTLY something a society of vampires would do) have become more and more visible topics in mainstream American media - both in entertainment and journalism - and thus people who are exposed to a lot of that media are more sensitive to them. Cheers, Ogreboy88
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Post by ayslyn on Jul 2, 2017 9:14:07 GMT -8
First, let me apologize again for the rant. The best it could have accomplished was a good old derailing. But... now that we've already turned left... Wait. What?? They didn't take up your time. You chose to watch it. If you don't like it, don't watch it. If you do watch it, own it. Take some bloody personal responsibility. Unless HBO kicked in you door, tied you to a chair, wedged your eyelids open and put a gun to your head, it's on you that you watched it. Sure. Perhaps my crotchety cane-waving is partly aimed at myself. But the availability (or lack thereof) of good TV shows that AREN'T about these things isn't my responsibility... Or if it is it is because I agree to watch pablum without kicking and screaming loud enough. Nonetheless, my aggressive rhetoric conceals a more honest longing. It's simply that I wish I could have True Detective without the child rape. I wish I could have Game of Thrones without the sexposition. No one is saying you should have to like it. Like it or not, both are perfectly valid choices. Demanding that they adapt their story to your tastes is the more entitled viewpoint. The responsibility is entirely on you. They make what they like, or think will make them money. You have to choose whether or not to support it. Pick the choices that make you happy. Accept responsibility for your own happiness. Vote with your wallet, and maybe they'll start making things that you will enjoy. Sure, why not.... How about kopmentsh (tangentially, Yiddish is awesome ^.^ ) The only issue here is that this is VERY subjective. One man's trash and all that. Sex, Violence, Language, while arbitrary, are quantifiable. Either two people are going at it on screen or not. Either people are being chopped up into bite-sized chunks or not.... etc... But my definition of brain killing, and yours are probably different. Not on a systematic or mechanical level, no. It's a part of the social contract that we impose via our groups. WE like to tell stories about the people we like to succeed. WE like to tell stories about the people who we want to see live. But, sometimes, it's interesting, fun, whatever to tell the stories about the people we DON'T like, DON'T want to see succeed, DON'T want to see live.... It's the mirror that allows us to appreciate the characters we do like all the more.
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ogreboy88
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 6
Preferred Game Systems: Currently between systems after a bad breakup with DND
Favorite Species of Monkey: Slavoj Zizek
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Post by ogreboy88 on Jul 3, 2017 6:12:38 GMT -8
No one is saying you should have to like it. Like it or not, both are perfectly valid choices. Demanding that they adapt their story to your tastes is the more entitled viewpoint. The responsibility is entirely on you. They make what they like, or think will make them money. You have to choose whether or not to support it. Pick the choices that make you happy. Accept responsibility for your own happiness. Vote with your wallet, and maybe they'll start making things that you will enjoy. Okay, so we're done with the White Wolf discussion and moving on to a lovely little politically-motivated argument about the culture industry in which you get to play the neoliberal/neocon defender of the marketplace and I get to play the cultural Marxist? En garde! Your argument here is typical neolib propaganda: I am absolutely free ("entirely responsible") to choose from among a series of options that are produced without my input or consent. If I don't like those options I can stuff it. This is not freedom. It is authoritarianism concealing itself behind a thin veil of personal preference. (Would you like the globe's ability to sustain human life to be destroyed by someone wearing a blue tie with red stripes, or a red tie with blue stripes? Hooray for freedom! Remember that it's entirely your responsibility that you chose environmental devastation!) "Voting" implies democratic participation. This is not what wallets do... It's what people do with words. In engaging in cultural critique - talking about what I like and don't like and why - I open up the space for all kinds of fun stuff to happen. Others might agree with me or disagree with me. I might change my mind about what I like or they might change theirs. I might discover new reasons for why I like or dislike things. And my own or others' inspiration to create new, exciting cultural products might be sparked. Your argument is that I am not entitled to this. No one is entitled to this. We are only entitled to pay as much as can be extracted from us for cultural objects that are produced as cheaply as possible. Past this we should keep our thoughts to ourselves. No thanks, censorship. I am 100% entitled (maybe even obligated) to demand whatever I like from HBO and so are you. It's possible I should be a little less aggressive about it... But where's the fun in that? Awesome! Thanks! So... I could try to antagonize you by pointing out how non-quantifiable these things are (How much nipple is okay? How about side boob? Is a supermodel in a thong sexual content? What about a textbook description of the human reproductive system? Kissing? Petting outside the clothes? Is "Jesus Christ on a Rubber Crutch!" an offensive expletive? What about "crap"? Is a scene of intense verbal and emotional abuse a depiction of violence? What about a scene where someone throws a rock at a robot?) But (now that I've gone down that road) I don't really want to go down that road. I was just grandstanding again. What I'd much rather do is point out that I have already given part of my definition of what constitutes trash: the over-easy use of sexual violence, violence against children, and torture as a kind of "spice" to make things more emotionally charged. What's yours? Do you like the things I'm complaining about? Why? Do you dislike them for other reasons? What other stuff do you like or dislike? This is the interesting conversation I would like to have with you (and others) that you seem bent on shutting down. Here I disagree once again with your conviction that structural forces and obstacles have no effect whatsoever on human behaviour. While you can conceivably play any kind of game using any game system - just like you can open a can of soup using your car - that doesn't necessarily make it the best tool for the job. If you are playing a game where 80% of the rules are about combat, then that game is going to encourage you to play a lot of combat scenes. You don't have to... but the pressure is there. I totally agree with this in general, but I was trying to get at a difference between a couple of things this could mean or ways it could be handled. Some examples: I once played a Sabbat character who was a really really terrible person. I would have totally reviled him IRL. But when I was playing the game I tried to identify with him. Whenever I reached a decision point, I asked myself "What is this character thinking? What does he want? How would he try to achieve that?" And because I was always trying to be in this mindset, I felt good when he succeeded and bad when he failed. I think mainstream RPGs tend to produce this. I can't think of a single time that I or anyone I've played with has yelled "YES! I FAILED THE ROLL!!!" and high-fived everyone (Okay, maybe a sanity check in CoC, but that doesn't count...) Another time, I got to play a kind of semi-NPC mcguffin character. Basically, we were paying a White Wolf version of Twin Peaks and I got to be Laura Palmer. I didn't try to identify with her. I didn't even think of her as a coherent thinking being. She was an iconic figure... a plot device. Whenever I reached a decision point, I thought to myself "What can this character do that will mess with the other PCs' emotions the most? How can I evoke their desire, anxiety, frustration?" And, I'll be honest, I didn't really feel like the game mechanics were there support what I was doing. When the GM asked me to roll Dex+Stealth to see if she could sneak into a Biker Bar, all I could think was "But of course she should succeed at sneaking into the Biker Bar, because it'll be that much worse when she gets caught by the bikers once she's already inside!" I think this latter mode of play - or something like it - allows for "wanting your character to fail" in a way that the former doesn't, and I think it could benefit from being supported by a game mechanic that is substantially different from mainstream RPGs. Fiasco struck me as a good example because, although it tracks success and failure, it gives you an equivalent reward for both. It can feel really good to get a black die from one of your friends who is delighted at how badly your character mangled that attempt to set things right with their estranged spouse. Soli Ogreboy88
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Post by ayslyn on Jul 3, 2017 10:37:13 GMT -8
I was going to quote this, but, honestly.... There's way too much to refute. There are so many factual and logical errors
First off, there's absolutely nothing political here. However, since you brought it up, neo liberalism (as opposed to classic) is for the government taking care of you. That's not personal responsibility, that's an abrogation of responsibility.
Second, you clearly don't know the difference between arbitrary and quantifiable. Saying side boob is fine, but no nipple is something one can quantify. It is, however, a totally arbitrary distinction. I can tell you where the border between New York and Connecticut lies. We've defined it as a certain geographic line. It's quantifiable. It's also arbitrary. It wasn't something physical that defined the border (like say the transition from land to sea) it was a bunch people agreeing that stand in this spot and you're in New York, step ten feet that way, and you're in Connecticut.
You know what.... This isn't worth my time. Do what you want. Good luck on getting HBO to change what's clearly working for them, just because you don't like it. Gentleman's bet says that they'll very politely tell you to get lost.
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ogreboy88
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 6
Preferred Game Systems: Currently between systems after a bad breakup with DND
Favorite Species of Monkey: Slavoj Zizek
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Post by ogreboy88 on Jul 3, 2017 16:38:20 GMT -8
Cool cool.
Much love ayslyn. I hope one day we get to kill some orcs together and I get to buy you a beer.
Cheers, Ogreboy88
P.S. Drink!
P.P.S. Yes, I also do children's parties, but you're going to need to book at least 3 months in advance.
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Post by chronovore on Jul 3, 2017 22:38:33 GMT -8
For the record, while I like ayslyn and am enjoying ogreboy88's attitude because Canadians always roll CHA with advantage toward me. HOWEVER, anyone who uses in-line refutes, line-by-line, UseNet style: I ain't gonna read that. It could be religious tracts that reveal the Meaning of Life, and I'd still wave off. But you guys have fun!
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