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Mote 27
Jun 9, 2017 19:06:51 GMT -8
Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 19:06:51 GMT -8
Did I hear right? 40 high generation neonates at minimum? LA suddenly doesn't have a homeless problem with all that feeding. It's time to petition the Camarilla. This is why Justicars and Archons exist. For when Princes go nuts. Stu Venable stork Any weapon can kill a vampire...eventually. Firearms do bashing damage to vampires unless you target the head, but once your damage track is full, damage begins to upgrade. So bashing becomes lethal, and lethal becomes aggravated. This works for rollover damage as well. So if you get ten bashing after soak, you end up the first three boxes converting to lethal. Also, once blood is in the system, ghoul or vampire, it's their vitae. Feeding from them doesn't blood doesn't blood bond you to their Sire or Regnant. Something to remember: So if a gun does 5 damage to a vampire and they soak 2, that leaves 3 damage. That gets halved and rounded down to 1 before being applied. So an attack which would maul a human only bruises a vampire. Since vampires treat bashing and lethal as normal damage, they can heal it by spending blood. They can do this while taking it easy automatically, but if they want to do it while they do something else (like in combat) the need to make a check per: The only way to make guns effective is to aim for the head (difficulty 8). This lets you do lethal damage, thus bypassing the halving and rounding down. -------------------- And for those of you who think dragon's breath rounds are the answer, consider this: You aren't shooting fire, you are shooting tiny particles of burning metal. It's the same as using a ferro rod to start a fire. What we learn from ferro rods is that ignited metal does not guarantee and easy fire. In the clip where they set the hill on fire, notice how long it took for the box to catch fire. These things are no flamethrowers (which are commercially available depending on where you live). So if we look to the rules we have to determine the size and the intensity of the fire. Size: While the blast may look huge, there is a lot of empty space in there. All the ignited material fit inside a shotgun shell. So it's similar to a shot glass full of gas being set on fire. I'd say it only does one health level of damage, because the person isn't really being engulfed so much as peppered with the stuff. Intensity: Magnesium burns hot, but is this burning long enough to really get up to temperature? I'd say second degree burns are possible, but it isn't burning long enough to get to third. That means difficulty 5 to soak (you can only soak fire with fortitude). Final verdict? It's better than shooting them with a normal gun if they have 0 fortitude. Anyone with fortitude 2+ is liable to soak the 1 damage it does, every time. Even 1 fortitude gives you a 50/50 shot. That damage is aggravated, but that only matters if they don't soak it. So, get a real flame thrower or a molotov if you are going to mess with fire, they are more effective.
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Mote 27
Jun 9, 2017 20:04:42 GMT -8
Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Jun 9, 2017 20:04:42 GMT -8
@stevensw I did say eventually.
Melee weapons, claws, etc. are way more effective, but bigger guns and better dice pools add more damage and you can't dodge firearms normally. Automatics will give a bigger to-hit pool (+10 dice for automatic fire). Every dice over adds to damage pool.
You can also only spend one point per turn on healing and you only heal one bashing or lethal per blood point spent. pg. 268 VtM 20th
Also, ignore the science with Dragon's Breath as its been established mechanically as a superior solution since second edition. White Wolf's understanding of firearms related matters is very poor.
Also, Vampires are notoriously flammable. In Revised it was something like a 3 difficulty for a pyrokinetic to ignite them.
The big problem should be that fire is going to trigger Rotschreck. That much fire being thrown around is going to make the players frenzy as well.
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Mote 27
Jun 9, 2017 21:16:12 GMT -8
Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 21:16:12 GMT -8
@stevensw I did say eventually. Melee weapons, claws, etc. are way more effective, but bigger guns and better dice pools add more damage and you can't dodge firearms normally. Automatics will give a bigger to-hit pool (+10 dice for automatic fire). Every dice over adds to damage pool. You can also only spend one point per turn on healing and you only heal one bashing or lethal per blood point spent. pg. 268 VtM 20th Also, ignore the science with Dragon's Breath as its been established mechanically as a superior solution since second edition. White Wolf's understanding of firearms related matters is very poor. Also, Vampires are notoriously flammable. In Revised it was something like a 3 difficulty for a pyrokinetic to ignite them. The big problem should be that fire is going to trigger Rotschreck. That much fire being thrown around is going to make the players frenzy as well. Ah, I was unaware there was precedent for dragonsbreath in VtM (what are the stats they give to it I haven't seen them in V20)? Are there any rules in V20 for catching fire? I see the damage for coming in contact, but nothing for a chance of ignition or spreading. I totally agree with you about Rotschreck (fire frenzy, for those wondering what that is). Even if they weren't effective at killing, causing a frenzy where the vampire must flee would be a good self defense / vampire clearing mechanism.
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Mote 27
Jun 9, 2017 21:27:35 GMT -8
Post by Starteller on Jun 9, 2017 21:27:35 GMT -8
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Mote 27
Jun 9, 2017 21:40:58 GMT -8
Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 21:40:58 GMT -8
Some perspective on the price of Dragon's Breath rounds. If we use the $5 a shell comment from the guy in the video, compare that to a box of Remington 00 buckshot (25 shells) for $19. We're talking 6 times the price! You could buy your whole coterie a box of buckshot shells for the cost of a single box of dragonsbreath shells. Though for my money I'd say you should buy your own reloading press and a few dyes so you can make your own silver buckshot in addition to saving money on standard ammo.
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Mote 27
Jun 10, 2017 1:54:25 GMT -8
Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Jun 10, 2017 1:54:25 GMT -8
@stevensw I haven't seen an rules on what it takes to ignite a vampire yet, though I have not actually managed to go through everything yet, such as Hunters Hunted 2, which might actually have it considering it deals with hunting vampires.
The rule from Onyx Path as far as I've seen is that if it's not in the V20 books, the previous editions mechanics apply.
I'll look around for Theo Bells stats which should have the Dragon's Breath stuff. Kicking in the door and lighting up the Sabbat was his modus operandi.
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Mote 27
Jun 10, 2017 2:19:35 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by uncommonman on Jun 10, 2017 2:19:35 GMT -8
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Mote 27
Jun 10, 2017 2:38:40 GMT -8
Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Jun 10, 2017 2:38:40 GMT -8
Starting on page 295 of the core, Electrical damage is considered lethal even to vampires. I prefer Requiems version where it does bashing. Vampires can overcome the paralyzing effect of electricity easier than humans (difficulty 9 for humans, 5 for vampires). @stevensw so far not much luck on finding the full mechanics for Dragon's Breath but previous mechanics have it simply turning the damage a 12 gauge does to aggravated and because they consider it fire damage does not need to be rolled, it simply is considered all successes. Looking at all that, I would have to figure out better rules for Dragon's Breath as it seems to be a one shot kill for any vampire without Fortitude. Then again, there are ways around combat.
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Mote 27
Jun 10, 2017 4:33:47 GMT -8
Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2017 4:33:47 GMT -8
Starting on page 295 of the core, Electrical damage is considered lethal even to vampires. I prefer Requiems version where it does bashing. Vampires can overcome the paralyzing effect of electricity easier than humans (difficulty 9 for humans, 5 for vampires). @stevensw so far not much luck on finding the full mechanics for Dragon's Breath but previous mechanics have it simply turning the damage a 12 gauge does to aggravated and because they consider it fire damage does not need to be rolled, it simply is considered all successes. Looking at all that, I would have to figure out better rules for Dragon's Breath as it seems to be a one shot kill for any vampire without Fortitude. Then again, there are ways around combat. I really liked how NWoD did sunlight and fire, with humanity and blood potency (generation) determining how bad it was. Thus powerful/monsterous vampires were much more susceptible than mostly human neonates.
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Mote 27
Jun 10, 2017 8:18:14 GMT -8
Post by stork on Jun 10, 2017 8:18:14 GMT -8
Ok, so here is a question. I was talking to a friend about Gangrel tactics, and asked if it was possible to materialize from mist form into someones lungs or body causing damage, and/or part of your body, say materializing with you arm in someone and ripping out their heart?
He said he had seen rules for it somewhere, and if the standing rule is that if it existed in earlier editions then its OK to use in VtM20, Id like to see what the ruling is on that. This tactic, though sort of a hail Mary because I'm sure it will cause damage to the vampire as well, might be useful against powerful foes, say werewolves and such.
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Mote 27
Jun 10, 2017 8:35:25 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by uncommonman on Jun 10, 2017 8:35:25 GMT -8
Ok, so here is a question. I was talking to a friend about Gangrel tactics, and asked if it was possible to materialize from mist form into someones lungs or body causing damage, and/or part of your body, say materializing with you arm in someone and ripping out their heart? He said he had seen rules for it somewhere, and if the standing rule is that if it existed in earlier editions then its OK to use in VtM20, Id like to see what the ruling is on that. This tactic, though sort of a hail Mary because I'm sure it will cause damage to the vampire as well, might be useful against powerful foes, say werewolves and such. I can't find anything on the net that proves it can be done (only opinions about if you can do it) so I guess you have to ask stu if he will allow it. But it says "He may use Disciplines that do not require physical substance, however." so if you have any other disciplines you might find a way of weaponizing your mistform.
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Mote 27
Jun 10, 2017 10:57:25 GMT -8
Post by Starteller on Jun 10, 2017 10:57:25 GMT -8
Ok, so here is a question. I was talking to a friend about Gangrel tactics, and asked if it was possible to materialize from mist form into someones lungs or body causing damage, and/or part of your body, say materializing with you arm in someone and ripping out their heart? He said he had seen rules for it somewhere, and if the standing rule is that if it existed in earlier editions then its OK to use in VtM20, Id like to see what the ruling is on that. This tactic, though sort of a hail Mary because I'm sure it will cause damage to the vampire as well, might be useful against powerful foes, say werewolves and such. First, materializing into someone will also cause YOU harm. Also, they say into the power description that mist do not cause harm Something you might do with the GM permission is to blind someone by engulfing him Ananasi has a maneuver Ananasi • Engulf: The Ananasi breaks over her foe like a wave, dissolving into a million biting spiders. Each turn that the werespider maintains the Engulf, the target cannot breathe and runs the risk of suffocation (see W20, p. 259). If the Ananasi is in a non-Crawlerling form when initiating an Engulf maneuver, the action requires a blood point, but the difficulty is reduced to 5 for the initial attack, thanks to the element of surprise. Usable by: Any Roll: Dexterity + Brawl Difficulty: 6 (5) Damage: Strength; suffocation Actions: 1 Since yours cannot cause harm it will cause blindness over 1 feet away. I would reduce the difficulty since it's not that hard but reduce the difficulty to run/dodge it too. Still useful in a group combat situation. One of the enemies get blinded unless he move away revealing more himself
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Mote 27
Jun 10, 2017 13:41:45 GMT -8
Post by Probie Tim on Jun 10, 2017 13:41:45 GMT -8
stork, if you look on page 200 of that awesome book you have of mine (heh), it says, and I quote, "...The character may not attack others physically while in this state..." So, while the idea of entering a target's respiratory system and materializing therein sounds amazing, I would think that slipping in through someone's nose or mouth is an attack, and thus wouldn't work.
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Mote 27
Jun 10, 2017 14:09:32 GMT -8
Post by stork on Jun 10, 2017 14:09:32 GMT -8
Yeah I know that, but if you rematerialize, you are technically not in mist state, and once solid, wouldn't that count as an attack?
Course I would think the vampire would take damage too.
Again, this started with a conversation with Kurt who said he read it in an earlier book. My question really was if this actually was in an earlier edition, and if so, how was it adjudicated?
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Mote 27
Jun 10, 2017 15:18:32 GMT -8
Post by Probie Tim on Jun 10, 2017 15:18:32 GMT -8
Yeah I know that, but if you rematerialize, you are technically not in mist state, and once solid, wouldn't that count as an attack? What I was saying is that for my interpretation, you couldn't get into another person to re-materialize in the first place. The act of trying to get inside of another person while in mist form would be an attack, and since you can't attack in mist form you wouldn't be able to get in there. But again, that's just my interpretation. And I have no knowledge of it appearing in earlier editions. Sorry, man.
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