sbloyd
Supporter
WHAT! A human in a Precursor service vehicle?!
Posts: 2,762
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller; Dresden; Mage
Favorite Species of Monkey: Goddamnit, Curious George is a CHIMP not a monkey! Stop teaching my daughter improper classification!
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Mote 31
Aug 4, 2017 18:15:42 GMT -8
Post by sbloyd on Aug 4, 2017 18:15:42 GMT -8
I am fully aware of how Paths are described in the rules. I am also fully of the opinion that Paths, and anything else to do with PC Sabbat, are bad for the game*. In a lot of cases, people end up choosing Paths that are essentially "The Path Of Whatever I Was Going To Do Anyway."
Regardless, it doesn't change what I said - that dropping too low in Humanity and bugging out for a Path is a cop-out (in my opinion, of course).
* I'm totally a Vampire grognard. I admit it. I've always seen Vampire as a game of "do the lesser evils so you can avoid the greater ones, and hold onto what Humanity you have left." The Sabbat represented the bogeyman, the vampire's vampire, the ones that revel in monstrosity - the flip side of the Camarilla in every way. By making them PC-able, they made a huge mistake. (Again, in my opinion.)
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Mote 31
Aug 4, 2017 18:57:02 GMT -8
Post by Starteller on Aug 4, 2017 18:57:02 GMT -8
* I'm totally a Vampire grognard. I admit it. I've always seen Vampire as a game of "do the lesser evils so you can avoid the greater ones, and hold onto what Humanity you have left." The Sabbat represented the bogeyman, the vampire's vampire, the ones that revel in monstrosity - the flip side of the Camarilla in every way. By making them PC-able, they made a huge mistake. (Again, in my opinion.) Agreed, that's why I support the Anarchs (like me ) as an alternative. You still can follow a path without being in the Sabbat but you are shunned/hunted by all sides. You lose a lot. Better for your character to realize what he did was wrong and improved his humanity. Going down and up in Humanity make me think of the movie "Interview with a vampire".
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Post by mrwigggles on Aug 5, 2017 4:43:28 GMT -8
Well now we're getting into, well not a failing but White Wolf realizing that their game of intriuge, politics, and suffering with the beast wasn't actually played like that.
Vampire, just became Super Hero game with fangs. The paths in part are there to help with that.And a lot of the other books, just give greater powers, and some of those powers requiring lots of mortal death.
Eventually oWoD Vampire, gave up on that core concept. So yea, paths are suppose to be, 'The Path OF I DUN GIVEEEEE A FUCKKKKK'
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Post by Starteller on Aug 5, 2017 6:34:17 GMT -8
Well now we're getting into, well not a failing but White Wolf realizing that their game of intriuge, politics, and suffering with the beast wasn't actually played like that. Vampire, just became Super Hero game with fangs. The paths in part are there to help with that.And a lot of the other books, just give greater powers, and some of those powers requiring lots of mortal death. Eventually oWoD Vampire, gave up on that core concept. So yea, paths are suppose to be, 'The Path OF I DUN GIVEEEEE A FUCKKKKK' That's why they went back to the old version, fans didn't like the new ones. Hollywood push toward more and more to nice vampire stories and now we got "Twilight". The player should play in balance feeding without killing an innocent. The WoD is not our world it is a grimmer version of it. Alleys are darker, object seems to rust, being scratch, torn easier. Even during a sunny day the Sun burn people, plants a little bit more. People have a bit harder time. More people went missing/murder. Playing is great and challenging. Feeding and appearing as a human is harder, the player had to be more careful. It is the GM responsibility to enforce Humanity/path and all it's consequence so it won't be 'The Path OF I DUN GIVEEEEE A FUCKKKKK' For example, even if Riley and Esa have good excuses to diablerize during a time of war they still should be an inquiry. They still should feel the Camarilla power a least scorn them for it. Not just an angry face from her sire. Albert has now a dark secret for following a path instead of Humanity that is required by the Camarilla. When his behavior of his path start showing he should be in trouble. But like I said no need to change the game into a Sabbat. Sabbat is supposed to be NPCs in my opinion. They can be Anarchs They seem to act like ones right now, making their own rules
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Mote 31
Aug 7, 2017 21:15:08 GMT -8
Post by mrwigggles on Aug 7, 2017 21:15:08 GMT -8
I dont think they mean to be making up their own rules.
Like, when Scully demanded justice for Riley breaking the 2nd Tradition. And Riley's and the Prince's player didnt seem to understand the weight of breaking a tradition. Riley being pissed about getting yelled out for being inside someone else domian, is getting off pretty lightly. You're in my domain without permission. Why shouldn't I kill you?
And with the Prince not caring about the 2nd Tradition just undermines the tradition. It removes the rules that the vampire are suppose to play be on the island.
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Mote 31
Aug 7, 2017 21:24:10 GMT -8
Post by Starteller on Aug 7, 2017 21:24:10 GMT -8
I dont think they mean to be making up their own rules. Like, when Scully demanded justice for Riley breaking the 2nd Tradition. And Riley's and the Prince's player didnt seem to understand the weight of breaking a tradition. Riley being pissed about getting yelled out for being inside someone else domian, is getting off pretty lightly. You're in my domain without permission. Why shouldn't I kill you? And with the Prince not caring about the 2nd Tradition just undermines the tradition. It removes the rules that the vampire are suppose to play be on the island. On that one, I agreed with Riley and the Prince. the domain was secret and they stumbled on it by mistake while investigating for the Prince. So it was a mistake on an official business. How can you call Scully or the Prince for the permission to enter the domain if you have no idea you are entering a domain? Scully was angry because he almost got caught doing something illegal.
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Post by mrwigggles on Aug 8, 2017 0:03:56 GMT -8
What Scully was doing doesn't matter in that regard. This is just about the 2nd tradition. The Prince shouldnt be counter manding the Traditions, if they want to use the Traditions to enforce their domain. What makes her Prince, is the Traditions. And to say that secret domians don't get 2nd tradition protection, is to say the traditions dont matter to the nosferatu clan. If you want the nosferatu to respect the traditions, then you have to give them equal weight. Otherwise you're saying that they shouldn't be in the Camarilla. Thy domain is thine own concern. All others owe thee respect while in it. None may challenge thy word while in thy domain.
Riley wasnt showing deference. Riely was challenging Scully word in his domian.
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Post by Starteller on Aug 8, 2017 0:27:49 GMT -8
What Scully was doing doesn't matter in that regard. This is just about the 2nd tradition. The Prince shouldnt be counter manding the Traditions, if they want to use the Traditions to enforce their domain. What makes her Prince, is the Traditions. And to say that secret domians don't get 2nd tradition protection, is to say the traditions dont matter to the nosferatu clan. If you want the nosferatu to respect the traditions, then you have to give them equal weight. Otherwise you're saying that they shouldn't be in the Camarilla. Thy domain is thine own concern. All others owe thee respect while in it. None may challenge thy word while in thy domain. Riley wasnt showing deference. Riely was challenging Scully word in his domian. You are not making sense Riley does not have a time machine or ESP. How would YOU have done differently? Answer this in the same timeline, do not go back in time or know the future. GM "There is a trail to follow to solve the mission that the Prince ask you to do. What do you do?" YOUR answer is?
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Post by mrwigggles on Aug 8, 2017 3:02:48 GMT -8
Once Scully said that was his domain. Apologize profuselly for the intrusion. Say it was an honest mistake. And ask him if they can explain why they are there. Scully then can listen to their requests, and can still send them away withough caring about their requests. Thats following the 2nd tradition. Riley doesn't get to try to override Scully. None may challenge thy word while in thy domain. Unless they were their to kill Scully under the 6th tradition, then Scully is King in his domain. Riley is a nothing there. Why she there doesn't matter. With that said, being there by happenstance because of the Prince order is a pretty good excuse. But Scully doesnt need to hear it.
The Prince, in the Camarilla, is like an hourly manager. They change hand often, and arent that important really. The hourly manager doesn't get to change or ignore corporate policy, the Traditions. If they do, then they get fired. The Camarilla doesn't care who is Prince of the Mote, or the Glittering Night. What they care about is that the Traditions are upheld. If you don't do that, then well you're probably going to be removed by the locals or killed by a Justicar if you fucked up big enough.
Riley didnt repsect it was Scully domain. Riley challenge Scully word while in his domain. She broke the 2nd Tradition.
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Post by Starteller on Aug 8, 2017 4:34:18 GMT -8
Once Scully said that was his domain. Apologize profuselly for the intrusion. Say it was an honest mistake. And ask him if they can explain why they are there. Scully then can listen to their requests, and can still send them away withough caring about their requests. Thats following the 2nd tradition. Riley doesn't get to try to override Scully. None may challenge thy word while in thy domain. Unless they were their to kill Scully under the 6th tradition, then Scully is King in his domain. Riley is a nothing there. Why she there doesn't matter. With that said, being there by happenstance because of the Prince order is a pretty good excuse. But Scully doesnt need to hear it. The Prince, in the Camarilla, is like an hourly manager. They change hand often, and arent that important really. The hourly manager doesn't get to change or ignore corporate policy, the Traditions. If they do, then they get fired. The Camarilla doesn't care who is Prince of the Mote, or the Glittering Night. What they care about is that the Traditions are upheld. If you don't do that, then well you're probably going to be removed by the locals or killed by a Justicar if you fucked up big enough. Riley didnt repsect it was Scully domain. Riley challenge Scully word while in his domain. She broke the 2nd Tradition. I do not agree with you at all over your entire statement and you didn't answer my question. of course, this is a game, not real laws. There is no way to know who between you and me is right, it is GM rules.
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Post by Probie Tim on Aug 8, 2017 5:36:14 GMT -8
the domain was secret and they stumbled on it by mistake while investigating for the Prince It actually wasn't so secret. EVERYONE knew that the sewers were Skully's grounds; there were several instances prior to Riley and Asa traipsing through where Skully had to lead various and sundry vampires through back passages that only he knew, and it was common knowledge that the Nosferatrium existed because Skully made it so. But you're not entirely wrong. It had not been officially declared as Skully's domain a la the 2nd tradition. So there's actually two things at work in that situation: one, Skully was being bad and he knew it so he had to divert attention from the Malkavian chained up in his haven, and two, Skully needed to get the sewers formally declared as his domain. Those are two unrelated issues, it just worked out that he was able to kill both of those birds with one stone. By feigning outrage at the trespassing, he was able to divert everyone's attentions from the Malkavian to a possible tradition breach, which then got the Prince to openly admit that the sewers were, in fact, Skully's domain. Winning!
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Post by Starteller on Aug 8, 2017 6:09:55 GMT -8
the domain was secret and they stumbled on it by mistake while investigating for the Prince It actually wasn't so secret. EVERYONE knew that the sewers were Skully's grounds; Not, really. Listen carefully Adrian didn't know the entire sewer system was Nosferatu domain and knew about that secret place. You told (trick) her after this incident. Also, the player didn't even know they were in the sewers. They entered a cave then it turned dirty. I myself I no idea by listening to the GM they were in it. Talk to the players and you will see many of them had no idea (or remembered) the sewers system was a domain
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Post by Probie Tim on Aug 8, 2017 7:22:54 GMT -8
Talk to the players and you will see many of them had no idea (or remembered) the sewers system was a domain Well, really, it matters not what the players remember. The bottom line is that the Malkavian wasn't in "the sewers", he was actually in Skully's haven - Skully's private residence and safe place - which happened to be in the sewers. You can't just bust in on another Kindred's haven without some sort of reprisal. Especially when that other Kindred is the Sheriff. Especially when a precedent has been set in game - whether the players remember it or not - that the sewers are the stomping grounds of that other Kindred who happens to also be the Sheriff. Now, I wasn't there for the session where they broke in, so I can't speak to how Stu presented it. If it wasn't made clear enough to the players that they were no longer in a cave and had somehow crossed over into the sewers, there's not a lot I can do about that. From my perspective - and from Skully's perspective - a group of vampires just broke in to his private haven. They just broke in to the Sheriff's private haven. And I guarantee you that EVERY player knew that Skully's haven was in the sewers. A claim to actual domain was - as I said above - questionable; it had never been formally declared. But it was common knowledge that Skully lived in the sewers, just as Lord Anthony had done before him.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2017 7:44:04 GMT -8
A question for you Tim - were the traditions ever discussed in the game prior to this? I got the impression that while they are established in the lore the other players who were new to the setting were unaware of them even though their characters should have known them.
As for the whole confrontation I thought it was a great RP moment from both of you and was one of those scenes that made Skully's scheming worth it. He'd almost got caught out and had to bluster his way to safety.
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Post by Probie Tim on Aug 8, 2017 7:49:39 GMT -8
A question for you Tim - were the traditions ever discussed in the game prior to this? Umm... I want to say yes, but I'm not 100% certain. I know that we talked about putting the traditions up on the wall behind Stu on more than one occasion, but... again, not 100% certain. As for the whole confrontation I thought it was a great RP moment from both of you and was one of those scenes that made Skully's scheming worth it. He'd almost got caught out and had to bluster his way to safety. Thank you! It was fun, and Skully achieved his goals; he wasn't caught, and wound up with actual domain.
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